Hot Rods wheel cyl bleeder won't bleed

say guys !
what would cause a wheel cylinder not to bleed correctly ? I mean when you crack the bleeder screw with someone holding down the brake pedal and then you open up the bleeder and it won't shoot a nice stream of fluid out. theses are all new cylinders replace and hoses too.
car is a 54 dodge royal .. all wheel cylinders have been replaced fronts and rears.
have issues with the brakes hanging up and pulling side to side . system has been bled several times . master is old and the shoes are old also and they got wet with brake fluid and are weaping some from over the years . I need to replace the shoes next.
..

 

Did you replace the flexible hoses?,if they are very old they can start dissolving and get extremely soft and then they collapse,,this will cause a car to pull in one direction upon breaking. HRP

 

hoses have been replaced hrp. brand new.. and all wheel cyls fronts and rears.

before I replaced the hoses the car would not move forward .. the rt frt. wheel was locking up tight only going forward .. after replacing the hoses it started to roll better but something is still causing a drag and pulling. did not replace the master or shoes yet..

 

Try adjusting all the brakes up tight then bleed and readjust your brakes.

 

Is it just one of em, or all? Is the pedal going down when you open the bleeder?

 

pedal is going to floor when bleeding but one of the wheel cyl in the lf frt will not shoot a nice stream of fluid out when bleeding but does manage to go to floor .. just takes alittle longer.

 

Start this story from the last time the brakes worked well and what have you done since.

There could be something horribly wrong or as simple as some junk plugging the bleeder port.

 

haven't tried that yet.. good idea .

 

ok here is the history
car has been sitting for 40 years.
when I got the car the rt front wheel would not turn forward. reverse was fine
so I replaced all the wheel cyls fronts and rear and hoses
did not replace the shoes . they had a lot of meat still on but they were wet from previous leaking . sstill need to replace the shoes .. that will cause a pull to either side .
new hoses cured the rt frt from locking up .. but still had a drag on it.
bled all cyls several times and adjusted shoes several times also.
reset the heal and toe adjustment on the fronts ............ so shoes are centered in the drums . that's ok now. RT. was way off.

 

at this point in time ...... it's getting better the more I drive it .. but seems to be pulling to either side sometimes it stops straight other times it pulls to either side .. but the locking up and dragging is getting better.
I think it has something to do with that lf frt wheel cylinder not able to bleed it correctly.
maybe dirt in it from the master .

going to have someone push the brake down while I watch to see what those cyls are doing on the left side.. see if are retracting right . just seems like something is hanging up still.

 

Heal and toe adjustment?
Not sure how your bleeders are made but can you screw it all the way out and inspect it and the cylinder to make sure they arent stopped up?
You said you had one way out of adjustment,somthing isnt wrong there causing the pistons to push too far out and "weap" fluid out is it?

Use some spray brake cleaner on those shoes and wipe em off good.

 

The master cylinder can easily be where a problem resides. There is a small port in the MC bore, just ahead of the piston rubber cup. That port MUST be uncovered when the MC is 'relaxed'. If there is something in the pedal linkage, or dirt/rust on the pedal side of the piston/plunger, that keeps it from fully retracting, that port being covered prevents the fluid from returning to the MC reservoir, maintaining pressure in the MC bore and brake lines, and will hold the brakes on. I experienced this on my '55 Chrysler some years ago. It is a coincidence it is a Chrysler product as this is the same design found in all common MC's.

edit: I agree wholeheartedly with those who advise replacing the contaminated shoes. There is no substitute for fresh linings. Ditto for MC.

Ray

 

If I understand this correctly, you are still using the old, contaminated shoes?? And expecting good results from that??

NOT going to happen.

As to the bleeder - pull it, check the hole goes through and there is no crap in there.

Cosmo

 

Agree with Cosmo .... replace shoes, update the master with a replacement, THEN see how it all works.
Saturated brake lining and a 40 plus year old m/c is just going to give you grief and lousy results.

 

Sitting for 40 years would mandate a completely new/rebuilt braking system.
There's just too many thing that go wrong in that amount of time.
Just sitting 4 years causes plenty of trouble - now here you are with 10x plenty.

 

If that car has two wheel cly on each front wheel be sure to check the line connecting them. Take it off and blow it out .

 

It would be a good idea to change the old parts but if one front cylinder won't bleed and the other one does, the master cylinder has to be working. It could be a bleeder screw that wasn't drilled correctly. Quality control isn't what it used to be. Try swapping the bleeder screws on the front cylinders.

Brakes are usually designed to self energize going forward. Maybe the shoes aren't installed correctly.

I've washed oily, greasy, brake fluid soaked shoes with dish washing soap and a scrub brush or a pressure washer with good results. I hate to waste good parts.

 

Sometimes a master cylinder will have an internal leak. Have you ruled that out?

A car sitting for 40 years to should get new brake components throughout.

 

1. Why the hell would you replace the wheel cylinders and not at least rebuild the master cylinder? The old dirty master cylinder quite possibly had crud in it that has now gotten into the new wheel cylinders.
2. Contaminated shoes are never going to work perfect. Even greasy or brake fluid hand prints on them can cause issues.
3. Are the shoes on correctly with the primary shoes towards the front and secondary shoes towards the rear? Are all of the springs on correctly and in good shape. When I was doing brakes daily for a living at least once a month someone would bring a car in on Monday or Tuesday that they had done their own brake job ,on on Saturday and couldn't get the brakes to work right. Shoes on wrong, springs on wrong or damaged or missing, Greasie hand prints on the shoes and not adjusted correctly were all culprits.
4. One thing I have found since I've been on the internet is that half the guys who now have old cars or have hot rods have no freaking clue on how to properly bleed a set of brakes. They come up with some real half assed methods but most of those are not what a pro would consider doing or the proper way to bleed them.

Personally I'd replace the master cylinder, replace all of the rubber hoses and replace the shoes and springs before I drove it on the road again. What little you spend may save you from having the brakes fail altogether and cause a wreck.

 

I agree mr48.
going to take the left wheels cyls apart today and see what is in there. ..

 

I agree .. the master seemed to work fine and never lost pressure when applied that's why I haven't replaced it yet.. it even had fluid in it after sitting 40 years . but haven't ruled it out yet as being the culprit.

 

Have you had the drums turned?,did you replace the bleeders?have you drained all the old brake fluid and refilled?

Sitting that many years you most likely have corrosion in the brake lines.HRP

 

Might want to check for a kinked steel brake line too.

 

Get rid of the old brake fluid that's sitting in the master cylinder. After 40 years it's sucked up a lot of moisture and you're just pumping it to all those new wheel cylinders.

 

I agree with mr48 and others and would add it's also time to replace all the steel brake lines. When doing so remember to flush all those new wheel cylinders with compressed air. Might want to invest in a compressed air type brake bleeder; that usually gets the fluid traveling with some urgency during the bleeding process.

 

today I took the drums off one at a time and watched the awy the cyls are pushing out the shoes .
some unusual movements .... like both shoes not moving outward at the same time or collasping .
like they were stuck in the cyl bores . so we went to bleed that frt left cyl that was not shooting a nice stream of fluid yesterday and now TODAY it was fine. go figure.
took all the cyl aparts and there was absolutely no debris in them clean as a whistle but................. with the rubber boots off and the springs behind the pistons manualy moving the piston in and out .................some them were hard to push and out like they were stuck in the bores. or a burr in them .... they should move with easy I thought. .
any way .. so we bled the system again and the brake pedal feels real good ! doesn't go to the floor.. good height . not spongy . observed all the shoes they way they moved in and out and all seems to moving correctly now .. go figure

I am ordering new front shoes and when they come and I will run my honer thru the cyl bores and cleand them up.. these must be jap parts. ..
see pic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>these are the shoes after driving it around the block yesterday .. all the oil came to the surfaces. again .
where would you guys buy the shoes from ? Thanks !
john

 

Good that you may have gotten the wheel cylinders fixed,,, BUT,, you need to at least check and put a kit in the master cylinder, it can't be at 100% after sitting all that time.

 

Yes you are correct there scrapiron ... today I even sucked the fluid out of the master and took my camera scope with a visual window on it, to look inside the master .. It was clean as a whistle inside . but that doesn't say much for the seals inside the master. the master is holding pressure and not sinking to the floor ...... that is a good sign . . I guess I like taking things a step at a time.

 

one thing you should have done before putting the new wheel cylinders on was blow the lines clean and dry as there will be rust and crud build up in the lines from the old fluid sitting and now you possibly deposited all that crap in the wheel cylinders when you did the bleed and that will score the cylinders and pistons and lock them up or stop them from returning all the way . you might have to take all the cylinders off and disassemble them and clean them out . the clearances in the WC's are very tight and a speck of rust is all it takes to lock them up

 

Blowing out all the lines with compressed air, as suggested by several prior posters, is a good idea.
You might also consider flushing with alcohol thoroughly and blowing dry again, before adding new fluid to the system. Also, there is such a thing as brake part lubricant....Silicone paste will do, that you can lube the wheel & MC cylinders with .....helps both the rubber cups and protects the pistons.

Ray