Technical SBC in Model A with Hurst Front Mount and 39 Ford 3 Speed?

Anybody done this and has some photos? I'm using Tardel 32 K Member, 39 Ford 3 Speed, Model A Banjo and torque tube with Chevy 283 and Hurst front motor mount. Believe it or not my search for SBC in a Model A comes back with few results on the HAMB or anywhere.

Did a test fit today and looks like no clearance to run a mechanical fan. Also the whole motor looks really low. I had to notch the front crossmember to clear the balance hub. Concerned with how low it is and that I'll have no fan clearance.

 

I'm surely no expert but I've been told that Model A's are built from front to rear by setting the fan-to-radiator clearance first, then adjusting the firewall to suit. Makes sense to me.

 

I think a lot of guys who do it run a older fan setup that raises the fan up higher. Kinda like using a early flathead generator/fan combo to get the room. Not sure which early chevy engines ran the higher fan set up. Sorry can't be of more help. Will be watching this thread I'm interested in the solution also

 

1. Like what was said; radiator in place, work front to back, let the trans locate the crossmember.

2. Do a search for Zip's waterpump riser.

 

Mine is a Snow White brand water pump riser, but this gives you an idea of how they work. Gives clearance to run a larger fan and still clear the lower radiator hose. Alternator can be run high or low, but low is better for drive belt contact considerations.

 

Yea. The Zips waterpump riser is not cheap, but work well, and can make things easier !

 

I'm not sure the Zip's or Snow White risers shorten things up though. Were I your shoes, I'd be moving the Tardel cross member back a bit to compensate, then taking an inch or two out of the torque tube and driveshaft. You are at mock up right now, so now is the time to do this.

If you look at the magazines from the early sixties, this combo was very common in these cars, so it has been done many times. Is there a chance that you have a long pump on your small block? If so a simple short pump might save the day as is. Also, remember there are two different Hurst type mounts out there. It looks like you have the type with the actual mounting pads up a bit higher (by far the most common to find) which in turn lowers the front of the engine. The simple cure is to fab some taller motor mount landing pads to bring things up a touch. The other Hurst type mount has the mounting pads lower by about 1 1/2", which raises stuff. When I need them, I just make e'm rather than hunt, and I always go to the pattern I cut out twenty years ago, which is the higher type.

Also, just by clicking "post full size" before you post, you can post your pictures full size instead of thumbnail.

 

The water pump risers don't shorten things up, but they do allow the use of a larger diameter fan before the blades run into the lower radiator hose. Raised water pumps also allow the entire fan to draw air directly through the center part of the core. My coupester has a relatively small fan - it could be 2" larger in diameter and still not hit anything - and runs a steady 140* - 160* with the thermostat removed. I've never seen 180* even on hot Texas summer days. They may be pricy but the piece of mind they provide is priceless.

 

When I changed my '29 RPU from flathead to SBC in 1960 I positioned the engine as far forward as I could to save legroom. I'm over 6 ft and the RPU has less room than a roadster. I bought brackets to bolt onto the frame rails for thr Hurst 1-piece motor mount to sit on using Ford biscuits. I positioned these brackets as high as I could up against the top of the frame rail. Even with that I had to cut off the vertical flange on the front crossmemer. With the engine this far forward I was able to use most of the firewall. I made a bubble for the distributor using a '38 Pontiac headlight and had to dimple the fire wall a little to clear the right valve cover. The water pump outlet was to low (I have no idea what my radiator was from) so I put a curved piece of exhaust tubing arched over the top of the water pump and connected it to the pump with a flex hose bent into a "U" shape. Because the other end of this pipe was higher my hose to the radiator was easy. I ran in this configuration for over 25 years. But I did add an electric fan after quite a few years. I was using a Buick trans that I converted to open drive so did not have to deal with torque tube mods. Hope this helps. (The rear is a story for another time)

 

No, I understand the use of the risers as far as getting the fan up and with a larger blade. I avoid them around here because in our extreme heat in the summer I have seen them negatively impact cooling in a could of cases. Probably flow related, and would be an issue anywhere else. My point was that simply building taller mount bases would move the engine up enough to provide some more lower radiator hose clearance for a larger fan, (kinda splits the difference between the too low stock pump, and the almost too high raised pump) plus some ground clearance and room for steering, exhaust, and if you want to sling it low, alternator. But, to the original poster, it looks like he might have everything an inch or so too far forward, as the fan is sitting just a bit forward of where the rear surface of the radiator should be... At least, that's what I see in the pictures.

 

Yup. Looks like the OP has two problems to deal with: too far forward and too low. Both easy to fix in mockup stage as you mentioned.

Re: raised water pumps: The Snow White unit must be "burped" on a regular basis to remove air trapped in the highest part of the water pump housing. The air can be trapped there when filling or topping off the cooling system, or it can be produced by the formation of a steam pocket which forms if the motor is overheated. There's a little fitting on the top for this burping process which takes only a few seconds if you've got the right wrench. I carry one in my 'mergency fix-'em-up kit just in case. Failure to burp the pump occasionally will definitely reduce the cooling capacity and cause overheating...just ask me how I know!

The thermostat is also a touchy point on these installations and must be drilled to allow water to circulate in the block during warm-up before the thermostat opens. Otherwise the thermostat will not open until the motor has practically melted! Again, just ask me how I know. The "distructions" show how to do this, but the previous owner who installed mine negated the holes by installing a fat rubber thermostat gasket which spread to cover them when the housing was torqued down.

The most effective cure for this is the removal of the copper part of the thermostat, the plate being left in place to serve as a baffle and slow the coolant flow. It takes the motor longer to warm up and it probably does not run at its most efficient temperature but I sure do like seeing that temperature gauge on the low side of normal no matter what's going on with the ambient temperature or the traffic situation.

In any case, as Chip implies, a water pump riser is not a subs***ute for good planning and careful mockup. It's a bandaid fix that often but not always helps an overheating Model A when raising the motor is not a viable option as is the case on my car.

 

Not a very good pic but you can see how high the front frame mounts are to run a stock 17" fan.. I also ran a stock fuel pump with this set up and no my trans tunnel was not high.. If you click on pic it gets larger to better see....

 

Ok thanks for all the advice. Wife gave me a Xmas honey do list for today, but she did give me Friday nite and all day yesterday to get this far. I have a 3x2 manifold coming tomorrow so I will toss the heads and intake on to see what it looks like. Wary of raising the engine up too much higher as I think it will twist the K member and torque tube. Really hoping to avoid cutting the torque tube. Trying to keep everything as flathead friendly as possible so I can one day drop my flathead in , swap the radiator and go. I think I may have another half inch I can push it back into the torque tube but will need to cut more of the front Xmember to clear the pulley then.

 

I also had a 39 trans in mine but it was open rear and didn't have the K member...

 

I know a lot has to with how you drive it, but how does the '39 trans hold up to a mild ( under 250 hp) sbc?

 

I'm hoping to find out soon from what I have read the 39 trans will hold up fine the weak link is the banjo rears.

 

Well, there are another 2 pieces of the Hurst mount you are missing that will raise the front of the engine 2". Seems a lot of folks dont know about them but they came with the mount for the Model A/SBC swap or so I was told. I got mine from another HAMB'er that had a bunch of NOS Hurst stuff. They are "U" shaped pieces of steel that go between the mount and the biscuit. I have them on my 31 AV8 Pickup, 1957 283, Speed Gems Adapter, 39 Ford Trans, F1 trans crossmember. My frame mounts are even with the top of the frame rail. I run the stock chevy 4 blade fan, no electric, no shroud. Never had it overheat on me.Here are a few pics.

 

Here is a good pic of the spacers and the part number.

 

i'm less worried about your height, as long as your oil pan clearance to the ground is ok. my coupe was set up that the crank pulley was behind the crossmember putting the fan just above the lip, to the rear of the crossmember. don't forget to seal the bolt(s) on the hurst mount, or it'll leak oil. i think at least one runs into the fuel pump galley.

 

I set the engine back far enough to use a 2" blower drive belt. I set the crankshaft centerline of the SBC to the same as the stock banger. The front motor mount is an Ansen version of the Hurst mount, and I'm using 55-56-57 chevy front motor mount brackets attached to the frame and the rubber biscuits. A 1" dropped front crossmember, and I am using a Zips water pump riser. The firewall is the hardest part of the whole deal. I turned it around and made room for the 2468 valvecover, and distributor. I'm still filling the hole. ( kitchen remodel is in the way right now'). Anyway, it all fits, ya just gotta start at the front and work back.

 

I didn't want to use the Zips waaterpump riser, I gotta figure there weren't a lot of cars running around with them in the 50's. But thats just me.

 

True enough, but, sometimes ya just gotta do..........

 

I just try to stay as period as I can, it's just my thing. My mindset is that back then they didn't have the luxury of picking up a catalog for every last bit or problem that we do these days. I try to reflect that in the stuff we build.

 

Mine is aimed more to the mid 60's. I only missed on 2 parts, oops !

 

So put the body in place today. Ended up going back to my *****in firewall. Need to move everything back 2 inches. Some decisions need to be made. Do I shorten the Model A rear I have or go for a stronger 37-48? And maybe consider open drive?

 

I wouldn't use the model A rear end for anything other than a 'stock' model A ...

 

That's kinda what I'm thinking. Why spend the money on shortening a weak rear.

 

By all means go to the later stuff on the rear. I have a friend that ran his roadster pickup on the stock rear with a small block/'39 trans all through the sixties. He told me that going up to the a later rear was the best thing he ever did! stick with a '37-'41 type rear though as they are a bit narrower than the later '42-'48 stuff.

Do you really have to go back 2" to make everything fit? Do you have a radiator to mock up with and check fit?

 

ya already have a SBC, why not go with a 5-6-7 chevy or Pontiac rear axle?