Technical Starting Hilborn Mechanical Fuel Injection

Kevin, love the ''Studebaker'' motor but I gotta ask, did you gnaw out the firewall with your teeth to fit the fuel distribution block ?

 

Oh yeah.....I secretly hate you. Awesome car, awesome motor, awesome history.

 

Wow...just wow....

 

Yes it has a lot of complicated stuff on it, we are slowly figuring out what everything does. By the way, does anyone here know how a Moon hydraulic throttle works?

 

The Moon pedal is a straight 1 to 1 hydraulic cylinder. It needs to be assembled submerged in hydraulic oil (as far as I know) as there is no place to add oil or bleed the thing. My experience using two of them is that they never were worth the trouble. They leaked and never worked right after that. Yours is probably long dead and if it was mine I wouldn't wast time trying to revive it. Hooking the wire from the mag to the battery is a sure road to disaster. As everyone has said, be very sure you understand what is going on before doing anything.

 

What a score.
Theres so much that would need to be done to that system to make it safe, itd be way more than its worth just to hear it run before a build.

You claim to understand our concerns and safety..... yet dont understand the concept of a gound wire. PLEASE listen to whats being said. You stand to potentially harm/ruin the motor, car, yourself, your family and anything around it with this endeavor!

 

I had a car years ago I ran with mechanical injection and although it looked COOL, it was kind of a pain in the ass to drive on a daily basis...I put a check valve in-line at the tank to correct the
long cranking time to start problem and I didn't have to carry a bottle around with me. Now I run 16 electronic fuel injectors driven by a FAST computer - still has that Old School Cool look, but so much more driveable and reliable[/ATTACH]

 

Yes the pedal is basically dead. When you press the pedal to the floor the linkage only moves less than 1/4 of an inch. We definitely won't be using it. Now on to the magneto. I understand the principle behind them but I have zero experience with them. I guess you have seen where I said there is only one wire running to the battery in the trunk. Normally there would be a ground on the engine and that wire would run to the negative post on the battery, correct?

 

I think you guys have a nice peace of history. Sure made me cringe when you said it wont be the same when get done with it. I would have a hard time changing anything on that car.

 

Don't worry. We are keeping the Hemi and possibly the injection if we can get it converted. The project will be done in good taste and we will update regularly once we get started. The suspension/frame is what we will be focusing on mainly at first. The body is extremely straight, so it is of least concern.

 

I fully understand the concept of a ground wire. We have built engines before and have experience with cars, but not like this. The concept of a magneto is new to us. We won't try anything until we understand how the ignition and fuel system is set up.

 

as for the ground you have two different things going on because of the magneto. ground for power from the battery and ground for causing an electrical short for stopping spark from the magneto.

generally you will have a ground wire running from the battery to the starter, and a positive wire running from battery pos. to the starter solenoid. being a race car.... who knows how the wiring was run. it may have only been wired to run the starter... the car may have been push started and not even needed a battery at all. technically the battery has no effect on the magneto operation as it creates it's own power and grounds to the engine block.

forget the battery for the moment. find the wire on the magneto. there should only be one. trace it back. tell us where it goes

 

just my $.02
A magneto needs a "kill" switch to kill juice to it otherwise
you can't turn off the engine once it is started.

 

The mag generates it's own electricity with a built in dynamo. As long as the engine is turning, the mag will be generating spark. The only way to shut it off is to run that current to ground. So you have a wire running from the mag to a switch and then to ground. If the switch is open, the engine will run. If the switch is closed the current will run to ground and you will have no spark. Opposite of normal ignitions. Running power from the battery to the mag will burn up the coil and that's the end of your mag. No wire should connect the mag to anywhere on the battery.

 

rich has you right.... its as simple as you get.. chances are the magneto doesn't have an advance curve either... it's fixed.

here's the sum total of a wiring diagram for a vertex magneto:

 

It has an old flip switch on the steering column that has an on and off position that won't move unless the key is in. Perhaps that is the kill switch?

 

Ah ok. We will look for the wire on the mag. We will let you know in a couple of hours, we aren't at home at the moment.

 

Perhaps. Keep in mind the ground to kill. Most switches marked ON and Off will be backwards. Off to run. ON to shut it off.

 

Is there a way to test it to make sure? Like with a test light or something similar?

 

Sure. A continuity tester (Volt Ohm meter) will tell you right away which is open and which way is closed. On just a battery and a light blub with some wire

 

It's a BBC in a 1954 SUTDEBAKER body with a full tube chassie, built the car around the motor...hit my Avatar and it has my SUPERBAKER PROJECT build pictures.

 

Exactly and to the point. The stud on the side of a Vertex magneto is where the wire goes from a kill switch and from the other side of switch to a good ground preferably on the engine block.

Pat

 

i converted to efi last year. i took off the 8 strombergs and went with a hilborn 4-port upright. talk to andy at hilborn east 215-643-4607. the efi technology is nothing short of amazing.

 

You are pretty close to Littleton, I believe. There's a guy there, Jack Tant,that knows a little about those. He ran them on a modified racer for years. He co owned the Ray Hendrick flying 11. You won't know what that is, but a lot of these guys will.

 

Prescott, That thirty seven is so awesome ! You are one lucky guy to have found it. Don't be so quick to condemn the engine. It appears to be a 354 cu in based on the heads not having bosses and does have water crossover and a stamped timing cover. That is one of the best early hemis to work with. If it was stored well it may not need to be removed from the car and torn down. I would check it out thoroughly before starting it or turning it over though. Here is my recommendations. jack the car up and remove the oil pan, it comes off easy on a hemi. Inspect inside of the pan for mice nest and debris. Remove the spark plugs and tubes and take off the valve covers, only 6 bolts each. Squirt oil into the cylinders. That way you can inspect the valve train remove any mouse debris and oil the valves and rockers by hand. Remove the injection manafold as one unit, even though it is two separate half's.. Do not take off the crossbar linkage or the link to the barrel valve as they are adjustments that take some time to get right. Now on the bench, you can examine and free up and oil the shafts and linkages. Next remove the valley cover to examine the lifters and push rods and remove any debris. When you go to rotate the crankshaft I recommend doing it by hand. I am cautioning you on all this stuff so that you do not damage this precious engine trying to start it. If the magneto is a Vertex, it will probably have to be serviced because it sat for so long. The internal coil usually expands and lock sup the mag as it sits. The mag removes easily with a half inch wrench. Take off the two screws that hold down the cap, gently lift straight up till coil wire is out, then remove cap and wires as an assembly. Remove hold down bolt, note which way the rotor is facing take out the mag. The shaft has a tang on it like a screw driver so it will only go back in right or 180 degrees out. Make sure you do not pull up the oil pump drive shaft because that is where the mag is timed to number one cylinder. Now you can check the magneto if it turns. Place it into a vice gently, take a jumper wire connect it to the coil wire and hold the other end 1/4 inch from the casing of the mag. Clamp a vice grip on the shaft and rotate the mag and a spark should jump every 45 degrees of rotation. If the mag does not rotate by hand do not force it, send it out to Spud Miller. Do not attempt to take the mag apart. The rest is a reversal to put it back together and get ready for start up. I will have to beg off for now but feel free to contact me for advice by sending me a private message. FYI I raced the early Hemi's in A/fuel dragster and AA/FD and I can steer you in the right direction. Currently I am the engine guy for two sprint car teams so I know your injection inside out and backwards. I would put the car back together just the way you got it!!! PM me !! Goldy

 

Goldy you said it all! Prescott you listening?

Pat

 

x2 and when the inj goes back on it will need to be set back up. once someone goes over this with you it can then be done by yourself. its not rocket science but you do need to be shown how its done.

 

Everyone has given you excellent guidance on what to look for and what to test and how to take things apart. One thing I haven't read form anyone is a way to run the mechanical injectors on the street.
There is a way to run the Hilborn injection without converting to EFI. Look into an item called dial a jet. When you learn how the mechanical injection works you will see what the pill is used for in the operation of the injectors. Once you understand what the pill is doing you will then understand what the dial a jet block can accomplish. The jet block gives you the option of having at least six pills to chose from to help fine tune how the injection is working and its all done from a rotating knob located in reach of the driver. Many mechanical injection set ups are driven on the street the dial a jet is how this is possible. Check Speedway motors they have lots of injection stuff including the dial a jet.

 

Lots of good information here . . . and a lot to digest . . . especially if you have not run an engine with a mag or a MFI injector. There are a few very important things you need to know about getting an older injector ready to run . . . or any injector for that matter. First of all . . . is it setup for gas or alky? What condition is the pump, lines and the entire fuel system in? So let's assume that the system is ready to run . . . how is it plumbed? Does it have any sort of bypass circuits or not? What nozzles, what main 'pill', etc . . . Also, everything needs to be taken out, lubricated and inspected . . . before you do anything.

Anyway, with some proper/correct initial steps to ensure the engine and systems are ready to run, would be happy to help you through the details of checking it out and getting it started. If you need to have me run/test the mag and ensure it is ready to rock, not a problem - have the capability to do it. Just give me a call . . . no sense in belaboring the details. Drop me a PM - will be happy to respond.

PS: Goldy mentioned Spud Miller - he does my mag rebuilding work, knows his shit!