Technical Volvo M40 Transmission Conversion in Model A

Didn't make the deadline - the Flat Out Blast meet today, but thank's to hectic work the last few evenings I'm almost there with the conversion. All the parts have now been made, including crossmember and torque bar, see below. I will assemble the parts tomorrow, som more photos coming up. And hopefully I will test drive next weekend.

 

Very cool thread, thanks for posting.

 

Here are photos of the whole assembly. I'm almost ready for a test drive. Maybe this weekend.

 

Thanx for the update with pictures, Marcus! Let us know, how the testdriving goes - fingers still crossed for a great succes!

 

Success!!!

Took a short spin around the block, as a first test drive tonight - and gosh how well it works (knock on wood...). First of all the engine with 7kgs less on the flywheel is so much more responsive, and then the M40 gearbox is just perfect - its like a totally different car to drive, so much more fun - worth all the time, sweat and tears (and the little finger I almost broke).

I will post a video soon.

 

But not soon enough!

 

I am pretty sure you could use the olderstyle selector with the shifter on top of the box.
When i was young we used to upgrade older boxes the other way to get the shorter stickshift.

 

The M40 works great!!

Here is a short video with me shifting through the gears. Please excuse the finger!

 

That is cool man.

 

Very cool. When will the kit be available and for how much

 

Nice work! Watching the video it looks like the ratios are pretty close to matching a big banger driven on the street...you spend a few seconds in 1st, a few more than that in 2nd, and 3rd will be a nice, flexible cruising gear.
I don't know what gear your final drive is, but I'll bet you will be happy and nowhere near redline at highway speed.
Having a full synchronized transmission is nice when you drive in town and need to drop a gear in traffic.

 

How does the m40 compare strengthwise to a '39 toploader? I have several of each, just thinking about whether to sell them all, or add one of each to my "hoard". The extra gear and syncros in a vintage look top shift box are an attractive feature.

 

In Swedish forums they say that an M40 can stand up to 170 HPs. Yes the gears are very nicely spaced, with the third nicely in between the original tranny's 2nd and 3rd - nice for cruising in town, rather than the original 3rd that was a bit too high around corners and 2nd that was a bit to slow on streets. I guess you could say that is better adapted now to modern traffic. On the highway I can cruise around 50, and even a bit faster. There is the M41 with overdrive of course, but I kind off like it simple. Yes, hmm, selling a kit would be something, or a least put up some better plans/drawings on here for free. I will see what I can do...

Here are two phots with the new Blockley tyres from the UK that I fitted yesterday (5.50X18) - I am very happy with them. The are certified for 130mph... Made for 30's Bugattis and Maseratis, but make for a nice dirt track look I think.

 

Dont know if I will ever use it, but I have a nice 59a core, Iam sold on this, I am going to go through the M40s I have here, and keep the best one, in case I ever do anything with the flatty. Sounds like a match made in heaven. Now I just have to figure out how to mate an M40 to a ford torque tube...

 

That can be done. I will see if I can find my sketch of the/a solution.

 

Here is some text on the solution from an earlier post on this thread:

It's not that it couldn't be solved, it just becomes too expensive. The solution would be to keep the stock U-joint, as it is fits the "ball" where it is housed so well. Modern U-joints, for example a Volvo U-joint, are too big.

To match the Ford u-joint to the M40 output shaft I would have to make a flanged and splined axle that would suit the splines of the u-joint (to the front). The flange would be bolted to the flange of the Volvo U-joint part that is closest to the gearbox.

I would also have to make a spacing ring that would move the whole ball assembly backwards to make the center of "twisting" the same as that of the Ford U-joint. Apart from that I would also have to:

- shorten the drive shaft and re-spline it as well as turn it where the needle bearing in the torque tube is placed - which would be further back on the shaft
- shorten the torque tube
- shorten radius rods
- make a new housing for the bearing for the output shaft on the gearbox, to which the flange that normally sits at the back of the Ford gearbox, that holds the ball assembly, would be bolted.

 

Sorry for hogging the thread, Marcus!

I am working on making it a kit (I’m a former machinist, now mechanical engineer, Model A and Volvo owner), but in order for me to make it cheap, I need to make as much as possible at home in my garage, with as few parts as possible from subcontractors/machineshops, and therefore I'm making tools for it along the way (drill template, special wrenches/keys, etc.). But the sure answer would be: no time soon - and it'll properbly be shit ass expensive!

Final gear is the same - 1/1, but ratios in the others are more evenly distributed in the M40 (Model A, 1st: 3,12/1, 2nd: 1,85/1, 3rd: 1/1. M40, 1st: 3,13/1, 2nd: 1,99/1, 3rd: 1,359/1 or 1,362/1, 4th: 1/1), but a more even split between gears should give better fuel economy and drivability, and since our bangers does not lack torque, it will pull a higher ring/pinion gear in the rear axle better.
It is the need for a split between 2nd and 3rd (in the stock box), that started my project (and the fact, that I have 8-9 M40 in the garage, besides the ones in the Volvos), because when I'm dragracing, going from 2nd to 3rd kills my momentum, leading to me falling behind cars, I should be able to pull away from.
For higher top speed/lower cruizing revs, see the threads here and on the barn about overdrives in a Model A. (At some point, I plan on making a torque tube with the Volvo overdrive.)

I have once busted the housing on one, but that was by going from reverse (at speed) to first, hoping my old 221 would spin her tires. She had arround 130 hp, but it’s not the horses, you ned to worry about – it’s the torque going throuogh the gears...

I still believe, it is doable, if the output shaft of the M40 can be machined/sleeved to match the Model A u-joint – or at least combine the torque tube part of it with one, that matches the gear box shaft. I need to disassemble the rear of the M40 to see, what is going on in the aluminum housing (besides the speedometer gear), and then design a new out put shaft housing, to match the torque tube.
But especially after starting the comparison of the two, I am positive to making it happen (picture taken Saturday evening):


Explosion view of the box can be seen here: http://www.volvoamazonpictures.se/documents/Volvo P120 P130 P220 (B18) Reservdelskatalog/Group 4 Power train.pdf

 

I've been dreaming the same dream as dannerr on this one.
It should be very doable to make them connect in a torque tube.

I have been thinking about doing it with a M400, but that's because I have one.
The M40 should be fairly stout, I've seen some fail in third because of a harsh beating with too little or no good oil in the box.

I know that the number one jeep engine swap over here is for a fact a Volvo B20 and a M40! And I also know that the shaft count on m40 without the rear flange fits in a MB/CJ-2A, CJ-3A and CJ-3B transfer box(4x4).

Does this make anybody go "Aha" I know what you need to "Make this happen", please speak up now.
I know there is a T5 jeep/4x4 conversion available. And I have no clue if the U-joint fits from the conversion and in to the M40.

But someone out there will know.

I have been thinking about using a 6sided shape that is 1-2 inches thick spacer that can bolt around the same bolts as the alloy housing of the M40, and hold the rear flange off a 32-39 of a ford gearbox. The one that holds seal, gearbox mount and and torque tube.

 

I'm really glad that the conversation continues - let's make this an on-going thread on the great M41, M41 topic!

Thanks Dannerr for the thought that started spinning in my head - of changing the final gear for a higher ratio. The torque is defintely enough and with the M40 gearing that would be great. In the video I rev rather hard. Normally I shift just above idling speed.

 

Interesting!
Must dig into my B-case to see this.

Exactly! I'v already started the draft in my lunch break a couple of days ago.

No prob!

Well, until I'm done, I'll keep the pot cocking, as I progress!

 

I meant this part.


From this page:
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_transID_3speed-rearmounts.htm

There are other types, that will be made in the similar styles. As van pelt shown them all.

Mount this over the Volvo M40 rear housing(the alloy one), but all the way over it. Actually around where you square edge (vinklen) is in your photo.

And cut the flange off right by the part that goes in the gearbox. And do the same with opposite part of the torque tube yoke.

And if you do it like that, the gearbox holds its own oil inside, and the torque tube can be greased up with out issues.

That's how I dreamed it up in my head.

 

I'm pretty sure, that it does not contain a seal, besides the aftmost roller bearing, Volvobrynk.
From http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_drawings_trans.htm, see for instance the '35 to '39 cut away:

Therefore I see no gain in using the rear housing mentioned - especially when another housing to go from the end of the M40 to the housing needs to be fabricated.

 

Sorry for my absence! I've been at 2015 lemans, and didn't use my phone.

To me, the part between the bolts and the bearing looks like a seal of some kind.
But you got a 32 banger box, it should be more definitive then what I think I can see in that photo.

I would run the rear part of the Volvo gearbox to keep the speedo drive (the one with a seal in it.).
And if I cut the flange off in a lathe, I can run the part with the splines and retain the the seal (already in the M40). With my skill set, I can fab up the yoke, but I can't print or machine a one piece adapter that goes from M40, via speedo drive and torque tube flange. But I can do it as a three piece set up. So it should be doable. And then make a seal between the alloy/m40/speedo housing and the rear 32-39 piece.

And since I'm a welder and fabricator, I would do it that way. I know for a fact you got a different skill set, and tool set [emoji6]

But there is more then one way to skin a cat. But most people agrees on stir frying it! [emoji41]

I got a gearbox with a shitty rear flange and a torque tube from my Chevy in excess so I plan to do a hands on Mock up with the parts I got.
And do an real update, and not just speculating.

 

Haven't had the time to look, has been tearing down wall and chimney. Will look at it at my earliest convenience - but as I recall, one can see the ball bearing from the rear of the B box... but I may have a bad memory.

I think, you've misunderstood my intentions, volvobrynk - it's not a matter of, whether or not it is doable to put an M40 in a model A, since Marcus (and Artiki before him) showed us, it is very doable.

I intend to install the M40 without having to modify/shorten the torque tube or convert to open driveshaft, which Marcus was hoping to do - see post #1 and #5.
If you look at my comparison photo posted earlier, this means by making a coupling from the M40 rear to the torque tube in a very narrow space, leaving no room to reuse the M40 seal (behind the rusty ruler), as this is where the yoke needs to go.

I let you know, when I'm making progress...

Ehm.... You do know, that this thread is about the M40 in a Ford Model A, and not in any random car, right?

 

My point was How it was possible to install a M40 in a Model A without going to an open drive, and stay torque tube. [emoji6]
And I know it's possible, but I can't see how it should work witt removing the rear housing too gain space.
Especially without shortening the axle in the gearbox, or the TT.
But I will look forward to see you result!

But where you have the end of threads, that holds the nut. And it's also the end of the outgoing shaft. To make it shorter one has to eighter A; cut out the drive for the speedo (worm gear/ snekke drev) and reweld it back together. or B; turn it (worm gear) down and make new splines where it was. And cut the Model A splines in the M40 shaft. But that means running without speedo drive. [emoji52]

And regarding the Chevy TT; a TT is a TT! [emoji41]
And if I can make it work with a Chevy, I can reverse engineer it to fit on a Ford too. It's only the rear flange of the TT-adapter that needs to be different, in the bolt spacing. And the yoke.

 

This is an very informative link, for a M40 nut:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641530

I been looking true it, and found a lot of info on it.
I swapped the rear flanges a couple of times, and took a M41 apart to do the rear bearing. And took it all apart, except OD. But never took a M40 fully apart. But I'm surprised to the worm gear comes of like that. The M41 it looked like a piece of the shaft or at least pressed on.

But there is a lot that I need to learn about.

 

Great thread, already said. I like this setup, strictly from the look that these cases have. Having said that ... banger tech' or B20 build is the limit with these. I've rethought so much on power choice ... I love this thread and hate it too. Wishful thinking ... vintage look, 5/6 speed, withstand 350 to 400 ft lbs. Oh well, dreaming again. I would take Marcus's ride anytime. Thumbs up for the lesson fellas'. Marcus, great thread !

 

Thanks kidcampbell! I really enjoy reading the discussions that continue. It would be great to see alternative solutions develop on the thread - then it would become a real goldmine for anyone interested in the topic.

A thought concerning the speedo drive - with unshortened torque tube the drive in the tube can be retained. Also, the Volvo drive seems to show slighly lower speed, my guess is 15km/h or so. I will measure soon, after a little vacation to San Fransisco.

 

Look closer at a M400 or M410, it came out of a Volvo 164. It should have been a better seller in the U.S. then the 121/Amazon.

It comes with a straight six. And withstands a lot more torque.
If you can't find you one I can, and would be happy to swap it.

And to Marcus; nice work.
I might have forgotten to tell you.

 

well done Marcus, great work, always like a good Volvo box too banger thread ! mine is nearly there now, needs to be , car is being driven to Pendine speed trials in 8 days, a 500 mile round trip !
great thread !
Kev