Technical Lizard Skin/homemade LS questions

Right now these questions apply to my 74 Bronco/rockcrawler, but in the nearish future will apply to my 39 Plymouth coupe. I've read a lot of threads here, and other forums, but they haven't really addressed my questions

I do paint & bodywork for a living. I've only been at it about 6 years, not a lifetime, so I've still got stuff to learn, but have a pretty solid basis on things.

I have my truck torn apart right now. I've been thinking its time to address the horrible heat & noise that make driving my truck unpleasant. I've got lots of access to the firewall & trans tunnel right now.

I've read about the ceramic beads & exterior latex house paint option for homemade LS. Even at "blowout" "special" LS prices from our paint supplier, the homemade stuff is significantly cheaper.

Our paint salesman told me that LS should be applied to the bottom/exterior of the tub. The instructions from LS states that the best application is to the interior of the truck. My worry about application to the exterior of the truck is adhesion/prep, but also, and more importantly, the potential to allow water to get under chipped or damaged LS & start rusting the floors/tub.

I'm going to bedline the interior tub of my truck, but want to add the noise/heat protection. As I've read that bedliner will help with noise, but not heat.

The guys at my shop, both with 25+ years in the business, thought spraying the bedliner over the LS would not be the best bet. As they don't know how the bedliner would react or adhere to the latex based LS. They both thought mixing the beads into an epoxy primer, and applying it under the bedliner would be the best. The epoxy primer sticks to paint & metal (it looks like I"ll be stripping my tub to bare metal), and is the preferred base coat for bedliner. My paint rep didn't give me an answer when I asked about applying bedliner over LS. His answer was apply it to the bottom of the tub. I know bedliner isn't an active topic over here, but if anyone has thoughts, I'm all ears.

When I asked my coworkers about doing the bottom of the tub, they suggested adding the ceramic beads to a synthetic enamel. It is cheap, catalyzed (tough), and seems to "stick to everything", so it would do well adhering to an old, dirty, greasy tub that might be hard to prep properly.

I know 74 Broncos aren't Hamb friendly, but thought the concepts cross over for the hot rods. And I will eventually be doing this to my Plymouth. Basically, I want to know if this stuff should be applied to the interior or exterior of the vehicle, and why. If anyone can lend an opinion on the application of bedliner over LS or beads in epoxy primer, please do. Any input is appreciated.

 

I've built several cars and used Lizardskin exclusively...here's the HAMB thread on the latest build:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=785551&highlight=the+2nd+best+60+chevy+build

I've sprayed Lizardskin inside and under on my car in my avatar - it's been on the road over five years now (with two long distance trips of over 4,000 miles each into Canada and back home) and have not noticed any "chipping" on the underside...

Anyway, I'm not a fan of home-made LS (how much latex, how much beads, is the latex good and sticky for XX number of years, etc....??? Latex eventually dries out and peels from wood after a few years...!!!), I kinda figure the Lizardskin guys have that figured out and down pat or they wouldn't be selling it ...I've sprayed both the underside and the inside of my cars...and since I live in ColoRODo, I really don't worry about rust IF the Lizardskin gets chipped...however, if applied properly (as in follow the directions Lizardskin provides and clean the underside and apply epoxy), then you shouldn't have a problem. I swear by the Lizardskin - it works in my cars, altho you'll read varying opinions here on the HAMB. To that I say to each his own, use your own judgement.

I'm now working on another car and will use the Lizardskin on it as well-both inside and under...I'm sold and satisfied.

Hope that helps,
R-

 

Great info, thanks.

I agree that LS should be better than the homemade stuff, and at the price I can buy it, its not too bad. Also, rust isn't a real problem here, thankfully. Its good hearing the stuff on the bottom of your car is still in good shape. That eases my mind. I still am hesitant to apply bedliner over the LS, and might do the beads in epoxy on the inside of my truck.

 

If applied underside you want to top coat it w/a standard durable (bed liner paint) product. For the inside, I would recommend this http://www.fatmat.com/ also. I used the thickest they had and loved it. Way cheaper than Dynamat.

 

I did the homemade LS on my last build, I've used the real kind in the past. I'm fairly certain mixing it in epoxy primer won't yeild the results you are looking for unless you don't thin it out and then it still may not be thick enough. It's effectiveness comes with the thickness of it and that's why I'm thinking they use it with the latex type paint. The home made kind I used seemed to do just about as good as the real stuff but it was a little tricky to get mixed. I definitely would not spray the Bedliner over either type of the LS either. And personally I still would use dyna mat over it in some places. For absolutely the best results.

 

I think it is established that Lizard Skin is a latex/acrylic based product. Why don't you beg, buy, or borrow a small amount of exterior latex paint, paint a test panel, let it cure for a few days then top coat with bed liner. A wise man once said, " one experiment is better proof than a 1000 expert opinions."
From experience, I know it is almost impossible to sand blast exterior latex house paint off from bare metal, because it doesn't chip, it is rubbery enough so the sand just bounces off.

 

Not to start a shit storm but the only knock I have heard about Lizard Skin was an adhesion problem. Guy with a '40 Sedan had his headliner installed and about 3 months later had a lump over the passenger side and the upholstery shop found a 3"x 8" piece had delaminated and caused the sag. Don't know if it was prepped properly or not.

 

http://www.lizardskin.com/car-insulation-applications.html See their technique's used.

 

Made some, with Alkyd enamel, because that is what I had.
Mixed 50/50 by volume, impossible to spray, took a LONG time to dry completely.
Works very well.

 

That Fatmat stuff looks pretty good too Slammed I think I'll give that a try next time.

 

I have lizard skin sprayed under the floor and inside the roof- has been on for over 10 years- no problems and works great

 

Thanks for all the info. I'm glad to hear it holds up under a vehicle well. That was my primary concern.

As far as testing the bedliner adhesion to latex, I'm more concerned with long term issues/incompatibilities. I haven't read any sure thing about spraying liner over LS. No one I've talked to at work, or the paint rep thinks its a good idea.

I'd do a Dynamat type material if I were carpeting. I'm considering that as well as the LS, for my Plymouth. My house remodel is winding down, so I will be pulling the Plymouth from storage and starting it this summer or fall. Finally.

 

Count me in the LS corner. All the inside of my 40 and underneath also. I was told [after the car was finsihed] that the LS would be a horrible mess without paint over it. Not so, it has held up just fine.

 

What are the details on homemade LS. Mixing ceramic beads with paint? Why not use rustoleum? It's durable enough and oil based. I plan on doing the inside of my current project with LS and the underside with upol gravitex.

 

You can mix the ceramic beads into just about any paint, I suppose. Exterior latex paint is what most have done, its close to how LS is made.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_8wwwz1u8w7_b

 

I used 1-Shot because I have lots.

Oil or Latex will work fine.

 

Anyone got a mixing ratio for beads to latex? I'm also planning on trying the homemade LS plan, but I've yet to see a mixing guide.

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I used it on the top and bottom of my floor pans and it still looks fine, no chipping. I really don't understand the fascination with the bed liner stuff for anything besides pick-up beds. I thought about doing the cheap thing, making my own, but decided it wasn't worth the hassle. Its a good product that performs as advertised.

 

Been doing some reading on this,

US composites, lists different types of microspheres, Qcells.
http://www.shopmaninc.com/fillers.html

5lb microspheres small and large size, not sure of type, I like the 2 sizes, to lock together in the paint carrier and give a better barrier.
http://www.concretecountertopsupply.com/index.php?app=ecom&ns=catshow&ref=Microspheres

 

Thanks for the research

 

FYI, I did the research to satisfy my own curiosity when I built the wagon. I bought the spheres etc, sprayed the latex based paint. I did temp readings using a digital temp gun and a heat lamp at a specified distance before and after. I can say I was thoroughly disappointed. I won't be doing it again. I saw no temp drop whatsoever. The LS may be different, but as far as the home made stuff, nada.

 

That is disappointing to hear. Thanks for the side-by-side comparison.

 

I had read so many "wives tales" on the net that I had to have a quantitative measurement to ease my own curiosity. I did everything according to the research I had done on the web. I was actually keeping notes and taking pics for a tech piece, right up til the time I read my results.

 

LOL I still use that bubble wrap lookin stiff that you can buy cheap at any discount lumber/home improvement store and like it real well. Guess I am well into the 20th century at this point. I am running out of time I am not sure I will ever make it into the new millennium. LOL

if I wanted something like Lizard Skin I would just buy Lizard Skin and be done with it. I learned a long time ago that it doesn't pay to cheap out on your car. I would spray it on the inside.

 

What type of microspheres did you use? Lizard skin has two different products the sound deadening one uses glass microspheres where as the heat shield uses ceramic microspheres. You need the ceramic ones if you are trying to make insulation

 

Ceramic. I still have a bag of them somewhere.

 

Lots of the guys doing old Broncos are using the foam or foil-bubble HVAC insulation wrap with good results.

I'm going to do the Al's HNR (heat and noise reducer) on the inside of my Bronco, then top coat with their bedliner. Per gallon, it's cheaper than Lizard Skin, does both heat & noise in one application of one product, and supposedly the coverage is 2x what LS is. So it ends up being MUCH cheaper (even though I can buy LS wholesale). You can bedline over it, or also top coat it like LS. If I'm happy with the results I'll probably use it on the inside of my Plymouth, and on the underside of the fenders to prevent rock damage.

 

Prevent rock damage.

I was at a show in the Cow palace with my dad when I was a little guy and there were a pair of ford coupes parked side by side. One had a few stars on the fenders and the other didn't. I asked my dad how come and he said, "Well son the one with the stars gets driven."

 

Fair enough. I promise mine will be a driver.

I laughed after I posted it because most 'rock damage" I usually refer to is from rock crawling.

 

To me the best thing about Lizard Skin is the sealing quality. It does take several layers effect heat transfer I think. Is lobuckrod still on the HAMB selling his product. I found it to be pretty darn good against heat.