Not trying to beat a dead horse, just wondering whatever happened to that project? Anyone have any updates?
Would also like to know current status.......saw motor & Mark Kirby @ GNRS some 5 yrs ago, totally impressed & put my name/contact info down on "his list".......kept in touch w/Motor City Flatheads for next several yrs and then Mark drove his 34 coupe out to Pleasanton GG's deal, running one of new flathead's which sounded awesome.... .......since then, everything has gone silent and my emails/phone calls don't get answered.......really wanted one of those motors........ In fact, one of his employees "Goosetta" (or similiar HAMB handle) would post here on status of development of new flatheads/etc.....but haven't seen anything for some time now......perhaps this post may spur him on to an update..... Lastly, saw Jon Hall @ LARS last yr w/his T RPU, but didn't get a chance to chat or connect with him......he'd certainly know status......
If I remember right Kirby was having some heath issues that slowed the project down. Then he hooked up with Shadow Rods. I haven't much from them either lately. Checked their website & they list Motor City Heads & parts, but not much info there either.
I was talking with one of the folks doing the road testing at Autorama at the weekend. It is still under testing but getting closer he said. I'm happy to wait and see 'cause how many of you would bitch about it if the new engine was anything but perfect??
I was talking to the gentleman that had the Mark Kirby built flathead at last weekend's Detroit Autorama ( upstairs with a blown flathead and had the Motor City V8 heads) in a 1932 coupe and he told me that the aluminum flatheads at Shadow Rods are still under development still being tested and they don't seem to be in any real hurry to finish the project. They want to make absolutely sure that the aluminum blocks are going to be perfect when they are offered up for sale. He knew Mark and everyone at Shadow Rods quite well. I guess we will just have to wait and see what develops.
A smart move on all concerned..........after all the effort into this, a less than ready product serves no one.
FYI - I contacted shadow (nice people) and seems that the blocks will be ready around year end - BUT they are going to sell them as complete engines only as almost all of the parts will only fit their block.
Good input jhl1963. Biggest question is this a money problem OR a technology problem? How many flathead blocks would the market absorb? If the price were $3000 (like the SoCal French iron block), could maybe 1500 a year be sold? That's only $4.5mil total gross.....probably marginal for a startup deal unless you owned the foundry doing the pour. I have heard that they were doing minor upgrades to "fix" flathead shortcomings....but if the motor ends up all custom, the market really narrows......cause it costs a lot of money to join the club. How come Dart and several others can tool up to make a SBC or SBF block that sells for under $2000? Is it volume potential? I realize the later model designs are easier to cast because of their design but why cant someone do an iron rip off of a flathead block? IF the price were kept reasonable (maybe $1495), couldn't that company sell 2000 a year?
Mike I think a completed engine will be upwards of 12 or 13K dollars. I also think that there must be some kind of developement problem as after so much time and money, one gets in too deep to stop. Just an opinion
Never would I invest in an engine that relies on custom internals for a Hotrod. Now for a race car that's a different story. Rich mans toys.
I saw some pictures in the Bonneville Racing News of an aluminum sort of flathead. It was only able to accept Ardun heads or reproductions. No ports or valve accommodation at all. From Don Ferguson. Makes a really pretty SCOTT blower also. Uses 4:71 rotating parts. And the Ardun heads along with manifolds and injection. All very top notch stuff and not at all cheap.
I picked up a car from Shadow rods last Nov. Actually laid hands on some of the internals on this motor. I don't think anything will interchange but it was really neat. They told me it would be released when they were sure everything was right. I think it would be a really bitchin setup but definitely not for everybody.
I understand your numbers. I think you are quite a bit over the number of engines to be sold a year. I would think the total production run would be less then the 1500.
Thanks for the info guys - I'd think an interesting business case comparison would be the 409 blocks from BMP and Bob Walla. While I would think Bob does it primarily for his passion, cant imagine BMP would've done it if they weren't going to make money at lower volumes. However, perhaps the development for BMP's engine was a bit cheaper than a flathead as they started (my understanding) with a big block and modified it from there so it wasn't necessarily a ground up initiative.
Volume - I'd imagine the same customer for these blocks would be the same customers that buy some of the repop rarer heads (ie not the edelbrock/offy stuff) and I've been told that the volume for those is often less than 20 (orosco stuff etc). So I'd think annual block volume would likely be less than 100?
I would be surprised if there are even 1500 flatheads rebuilt per year. No way in hell 1500 aluminum blocks would get sold per year. The aftermarket SBC/BBC/SBF/etc blocks can be done due to the volumes. You've got a lot more folks building cars that would use those engines: stock cars, sprint cars, dragsters, street machines, hot rods, etc. Flatheads are pretty much just limited to 50's era hot rods or restorations. The LWA/World 409 blocks were indeed based off of existing BBC blocks, and they also cost $5k+ bare. Bob Walla does it because he loves the 409.
It's rumored that the repop Ardun heads go for $14,000. I don't know what all comes with them for that. But it gives you an idea of what stuff costs.
This presentation in May - 2012 covers a lot of ground. http://vintagemotorsusa.org/enenta_alumFlathead.html
Pitman, good link to the video. That motor is $$$$ or more.....nice but they might sell 15 the first year. Where are the frogs who cast the French flathead? There has to be cores somewhere and the expertise to pour blocks.
It is my understanding that the cores were destroyed before the Americans that saved the engines arrived.
You have to appreciate the irony in that the ultimate flathead, that is, Ardun is in fact NOT a flathead. We all know the history of Ardun Heads as a planned horsepower enhancement for Ford truck engines, but by the time they were ready, Ford had developed the F8 flathead, same as 1949-51 Lincoln. And an early Chrysler Hemi would likely blow an Ardun in the weeds. Bottom line, a marvelous invention but not altogether practical, as well as beyond the financial reach of most enthusiasts. An ongoing tribute to the high price of nostalgia. Of course NOTHING trumps an Ardun for looks or drool factor.
The Jalopy Journal
