What about flat (180 degree) cranks in flatheads?

Hello

Did racers use 180 degree cranks in flatheads back in the day? I have read somewhere that Barney Navarro had one in his destroked V8 but did others use it to? Are there any flat cranks available today? But I guess they never were over-the-counter products

Don't have the money to have one made or no reason for it for that matter. Just but it would be cool hear if someone here know anything about it.

Thanks, Magnus

 

If you can access YaHoo's racing history site (yahoo.com/group/racinghistory/) there was a considerable thread/discussion on this subject a month or so back. The search bar found them for me by typing in "180 degree cranks". The message numbers start around 36119 and run thru 36169.

 

I know they build up V8-60's to run in midgets called them "Crossfire" engines.

 

Just for understanding, what would the advantage be in a 180 crank? I've heard of clustering the engine pulses in motorcycle race engines. Is this anything similar?

 

By splitting up a V8 into 2 straight 4cyls, you can make a much more efficient header.

But a Flatty has a siamesed center port.
Which might bring the pulses closer together, making it less efficient.
( I'd have to compare firing orders to be sure about that one )

I've heard a flat crank is easyer ( cheaper ) to make too, but I'm sure any money saved would be spent on the custom made cam it would need too...

 

flathead Jack has them for big bucks.

 

This is one of those subjects that has two schools of thought. Some oldtimers I've spoken to thought they were a waste of time and others think that God brought 180 degree cranks to Moses along with the ten commandments. I think that they were kind of like Hilborn injection; something that was made with one purpose in mind, and never intended to be streetable.

 

180 flathead cranks were made by norden. the same company that made race car center steerings. they made the cranks for both v8 60 and big flatheads. i have a v8 60 that has a 180 crank - dry sump oiling - aluminum front with 2 aluminum water pumps. the old timers told me few ran better than a std crank but not by much mike

 

Claimed advantages were ability to space out the pulses into shared exhaust passages and the inherently lighter weight of the crank, probably at a cost about equivalent to that weight in dollar bills...

 

I was always fascinated by the idea of a 180 degree crank in a flatty...

I don't know why but it always seemed cool, so every time I got the chance, I talked to old timers about it.

Barney Navarro, Red Hamilton, Jay Steel, etc...

Most think it was basically a waste of time but the best explanation of the concept I got was from Jere Jobe who has a 180 degree monster flathead that he ran in his rail...

He said that the develope massive mid range torque across a broad curve. They have very little top end and sacrafice a bit in the low end but in the mids they pull like crazy.

This makes them perfectly suited for dirt track racing. Thus the reason a lot of guys would try it in the little V8 60s because they were the preferred motor in smaller dirt track cars.

I thought "Massive Mid Range" sounded cool for a street car too but Jere said that 180 motors don't idle well and the upper end drop off is bad on the street.

I've talked to other guys since Jere and most seem to agree with him. So rather than putting the expense into a 180 motor, I think I'll put my money toward a blower flat instead. Someday... Someday...

 

Doc Floyd still runs one in his F.E.D. If you want to see one in action follow the West Coast Nastalgia circuit, Seattle to Bako. He's big on Injction and also has an Injected Desoto F.E.D. Doc has been around since Christ was a Kid. He may have gotten that Nordon Crank form Mosses.
The Wizzard

 

Thank you for the link. I have applied for membership and will have a look asap.

It's probably a bit of a waste of time and money to go for a 180 deg crank. Only minor advantages and a lot of possible problems due to different vibrations. But I think it's interesting to learn about all the tricks the guys back in the day used.

Thank you all for your answers. Once again the H.A.M.B has been a great source of knowledge.

//Magnus

 

I wonder how well it would respond to a "long center branch" type header, like the ones they used to put on Mini Coopers. ( They also had a seamesed center exhaust port...)

 

i was thinking, this sounds alot like the crank that ran in the Novi's...which was an engine that ran all day at 8k with out a hitch!

 

I know a few old dirt trackers that ran the stadium circuit (Think a track around a football field) and they liked them for the torque. I know from just listening you could tell who was running one.

 

All I know about 180 degree cranks is what I've heard, and I have heard them run. They sound like an inline engine. None of that good flathead sound. Long time flathead drag racer Whitey McDonald told me he tried one years ago and it vibrated like crazy.

 

In '69 living in Boulder, Col was rebuildinga '52 Ford station wagon engine. Was sent an expert machinist of flat heads.
His shop was a museum of his Bonneville days. A drop tank lakester in red and white an engine in process of being built. The crank was laid out on the work bench was 180 degree and had no counterweights. Ask about it, he grinned and said it was an old speed trick.
Plaques, pictures and trophies covered one wall.
Wish I could remember his name.

 

A very wise man (who built "Champ" cars) but sadly passed, told me many times - "son, the only way to beat cubic inches is with cubic dollars! Speed costs money, how fast do ya wanna go?" Sadly, I'm darn near 60 and I'm afraid he was right!
I know they used the flat cranks in the little 60 flatties (for midgets), but don't remember them much in the bigger engines.

 

I'm pretty sure most/all Ferrari's are flat crank. Thats part of that unique sound that they have.

I'm trying to remember if its a flat crank that gets a spider header or not, been to long since I've thought about this stuff... Gets expensive.

New cams, gotta re-figure the ignition system... etc.

A 2 stroke flat crank was my dream.......

 

Warren Johnson used to run one in an Olds Pro Stocker years ago, it sounded like a really stout tractor motor!!!

 

Thats so funny. All this thinking about different cranks started when I was thinking about building a 2 stroke inline 4 with a V8-crank to get the pulses more even. It was just a sort of an intellectual experiment, I never did anything about it. But I think I have all the things about it figured out so maybe one day But it was funny you and me both had thought about s-stroke.

Anyway, thank you all for contributing to this discussion. I'm actually more for a flat crank now that I was before. It would be great to get one just for some sort of homage to all the guys back in the day and all the tricks the used. I'll defenitly keep my eyes open for an crank and cam.

//Magnus

 

Kenz and Leslie?

http://www.coloradoracingmemories.com/crm_kenz_leslie/crmkenz.htm

 

At first, you can appreciate that somebody thought of it and tried it. But the result, according to guys I know that ran, or ran against them, there was no advantage, except the "wonder-of-it-all", and the fact that it sounded different. Like, "shit, listen to that sick engine, and it's still keeping up with the rest of the guys!"

But, for somebody to pass it along to somebody else as an advantage, sell it, expecially from a marketing standpoint, would be a rip-off, pure and simple.

All and all, wouldn't it be bitchin' to have one? Who has one? I want to buy it!!

 

Norden Machine Works of 5853 W. Washington Blvd., Culver City, CA sold 180
degree crankshafts for the Ford and Merc engines, as well as the V8 60s, they
also sold shafts for the Crosley and Offenhauser. The Merc cranks could be
ordered with a 4" stroke using the 29A rod or 4 1/8 stroke using a 21A rod. All
cranks came with a special camshaft.

I would Like to know when Norden was in business.

The Ford V8 "Norden" cranks were advertised to be 25% lighter and eliminated
crowding at the center exhaust port. The exhaust cycles are 180 degrees apart,
compared to stock of 90 and 270 degrees (cam timing). Two pistons cross top
dead center on each bank at the same time that set up a vibration similar to a
four cylinder engine. Greater torque during acceleration and a slowing or
breaking effect during de-acceleration were the goals of this setup. Firing order
was 1-8-3-6-4-5-2-7. They recommended a rubber motor mount.

"Norden" crankshafts materials: cast steel with nickel chrome and manganese.
Camshafts were high nickel chrome cast iron, although they recommend a steel

 

This probably explains why Karl Orr-Karl Orr Speed Shop ran one in his sprinter (Now owned by Don Ferguson Jr.=Ardun Heads) & cleaned up during the latter part of the 40's @ Culver City Speedway. It was a race only deal,but effective.
Thanks for the history.

 

Nobody cleaned up with only an equipment innovation for more than about 2 weeks in a row without somebody else joining the crowd. Gunslingers from everywhere would be challenged. I never attribute what the equipment was as the main reason for success, because in the days (before wings), most every sprint car race was won and lost in the turns, where the driver's skill was tasked the most. That's why the 6-banger jimmys, with superior driving contended. Lose a little in the straight, make up for it in the turns. It was a rare affair for a car, in any class, to walk away from the field, week in and week out. If the flat crankshaft (high torque at mid-range rpm)was a real innovation, it would have dominated in far more cases, and history would reflect that. If it had been a true advantage/innovation, then all v8s would still have flat cranks. I go with the general consensus from people that were actually there; that it was neither a innovation, nor a bust, but that it was a mere contender. It's my guess that Orr was a superior driver with good instinct and more aces in the hole than (just) a flat-crankshaft. History is a funny thing, being re-written all the time. People that he beat would rather give his crankshaft credit, as every driver that loses a race comes up with an excuse like that, instead of admitting that the other driver beat him. One's ego can survive more of a beating if the other guys MOTOR was better. And of course the supplier/sponsor would spin it that way too.

 

Does anybody have information and/or photos of Karl Orr or his wife Veda, or Veda's '32 Ford roadster that ran the California dry lakes in the late '40s? I'm especially interested in engine and interior shots. Thank you for your consideration.

By the way, Flat cranks are used in current Ferrari and Maserati production V8s (as well as in IRL V8 engines--and virtually every V8 racing engine over the years, including the legendary Cosworth DFV and its derivatives). They sound great because of the exhaust tuning advantages mentioned earlier in this thread. They scream rather than rumble.

 

D.L. Sartin out of the King Ranch in South Texas ran one back in the late 50's and eary 60's. He had two identical engines except one was a 180 crank. Both had four 97's and ran on about 50% nitro. He equalled the world record in D Fuel and was able to out run even John Bradley on occasion. He was a flathead maniac. The 180 crank engine ran almost the exact same times and speeds as the 90 crank engine. Other than sounding weird, there was no appreciative difference in performance.

 

You're right. There shouldn't be any advantage with identical engines (I'm assuming that the exhaust systems were identical, too). The advantage comes with better exhaust tuning downstream of the ports (like, tuned headers--which weren't much in use back then). Even with tuned headers, there might not have been much difference in a quarter mile...

 

If I'm not mistaken, the Rolling Bones have a 180 degree crank in the roadster they ran at B'ville this year.