After going through this thread again, I would definitely let the shop reo the paint. It is an adhesion problem of some sort, and it sounds like the shop is willing to make good the problem. Most shops don't want their reputation tarnished.
seen this happen once with a high build primer. The painter didn't read the fine print or tech sheet on the material It was the first time this type of primer had been used by this painter. The primer manufacturer stated that a sealer had to be used. Paint peeled of just like that and that primer color is very similar. Also how long something has sat sanded before top coats are applied is very important. I always re scuff and re clean if I have waited longer than 24 hrs to spray on prepped primers
Peel is like delaminates where the paint does not make a chemical or mechanical bond to the substrate I.E. Primer or Sealer or previous painted surface. Redo means to do the job over without any monatry compensation $$$$$$$ Sorry for my missed spelling, spell check should have caught it.
If shops I sell to don't do at least a 15 min induction time on epoxy they can go down the street and buy from ExcuseMasters. The epoxy primers that don't require a induction time are just****uming it takes 15 mins for a painter from mixing to application. But no doubt you won't have near the adhesion without the induction time.
I had this happen and it was determined to be the pre paint solvent was wrong. It melted the sanding scuff job and made it slick. You could see it. DuPont stood by the product and replaced it all. I stripped it all and repainted. My thoughts for this job is surface contamination, silicone spray or some other airborne contaminate. A lot can get on a car in four years. Stick with one product line if you can.
Iv seen this happen to a fleet of trucks my buddy painted. They gave him water based paint at the paint shop. The guy at the counter didn't tell him you had to use their water base paint with the primer. Eventually the paint came off.
If the painter blames it on bad reducer, he should never again hold a paint gun in his hands. There is no way that this is a reducer problem. It is a surface problem, nor sanded correctly or as has been said painted after the time window was over on the sealer. One of those two things only.
Reminds me of a 68 Nova my brother used to own, it came to him with a cheep paint job with a similar problem as this one. He took it down to the local coin operated car wash and blasted all the top coat of paint off the car, then started over. I can just imagine the car wash owner coming in and finding that mess, he must've gone ballistic!
It may be best to allow the shop to correct the issue & there may be a paint manufacturer involved. We were painting our airplane with waterborne paint. The first attempt on a door was glossy but had a slight haze without the intensity that it should have had with the color. We missed one important step even with all our studying of the information & watching videos on the process. The hardener had to be mixed into the paint thoroughly then given a few minutes to catalyze before adding the water reducer. Adding the water too soon killed the reaction. Given the reaction time it went on & looks amazing. There are two methods of mixing as well. The hardener & paint were done by volume & diluted to about 21 seconds in the viscosity cup. We switched to weigh paint, hardener & water with a digital scale using the ratios measured to the gram. Weighing the product gave us absolute consistency to shoot the paint perfect. Then we ordered another batch and struggled with it until we got it figured out. We learned that they had improved the paint but it sprayed differently. Even the best professionals in any craft can have a problem. We get inundated with so much literature & information on a product that the brain can go numb reading it. We had to throw away the methods for spraying solvent based paint to water borne paint. We talked to different company experts on spraying the product and got a couple different methods from each of their tech people. We made a couple practice panels and used what worked. 2 of us can paint successfully following one method & the third partner has to do it another to get the same result. Everyone has to learn to work with a product. The other thing that others have mentioned is the window between steps and if time passes then it needs to be scuffed for the next coat to bind. We are currently sanding our white urethane to lay green urethane on it. Scuffing the white to stick the green was a critical step. The shop or painter may have been misled on compatibility of materials. Someone also mentioned that car had to be taken as to the solvent or degreaser used to wipe down the paint removing the tooth so the paint does not stick. Our system recommends using isopropyl alcohol. We find 90%+ is aggresive enough to feel the effect where as 70% cleans nicely without effecting the paint or primer. We learned that we need to go with the most conservative approach & if told that it should work we retreat to what is known to work. If it is borders on scuff or not to then scuff. There is too much work & money involved to risk failure. If the shop has a good history of doing quality work & that is verifiable then there is a minimum risk that they would foul it up a second time. You must have had a good reason to turn your car over to them in the first place. If they are not making excuses or trying to run a game on you then that can be respected. They seem to have integrity & value their customers & their reputation as a quality builder. It may take sitting down with the shop and have them lay out their plan for your approval. I am sure that you have laid out sufficient funds for a quality job then if they offer to do it on your dime then it could save you paying a lot of money to get the car redone. Let them reassure you that they do quality work, have a timeline & have them give some work that you could follow up with other owners. IMHO opinion is that a lot can be accomplished between reasonable people with calm dialogue & mutual respect. All the best in what ever direction you elect to go.
4yrs? Dang even the same company primer and then paint would be different after 4 years! Evan if it was the same kind. No bueno. And if it sat in a shop for that long to paint after primer you would have to re-primer before painting top coats anyway. Crazy sad.
I have to guess that you're****uming it's four years for a little primer blocking and a paint job. Looks like a full on custom build with no idea where they started from.
Yup thats the guess. Seen alot of cars get stripped then primered and sit in a shop for a ton of time collecting all kinds of stuff out of the air before final coats. Finger prints dont paint very well. Even if you chemically clean it it goes too deep.
Thank you. Definitely not an enviable place for the car owner. I was surprised to recently learn that care had to be taken with the solutions used to clean our scuffed waterborne urethane. Care is needed not to remove the tooth created by the sanding with the cleaning solutions. My thinking was that urethane would not be easily affected. The devil definitely is in the details when it comes to paint. This was an interesting read.
Ok guys I don't want to beat on a dead dog but the # 1 reason I have seen paint failures is not following through with the same products DuPont on PPG or some aftermarket primer fillers. I have shot R&M ,PPG, DuPont and Glasseruit stay with same products. Follow the directions and watch the recoat times between coats . I have fixed many factory peel jobs but they were chemistry related it happens ! and it makes you sick when it does. I have seen people mix systems but I DONT RECONMEND IT ! Good air filtration is important also you can get oil and water from the air lines . use measuring devices, cups that are ratio measured double check ratios and check solvent temperature ranges to fast and no adhesion or to slow runs and trash CHECK EVERYTHING TWICE and then***** still happens ! Makes me sick I have lived through this before 35 years painting still learning !
You know the painter could be right, if you are using a Sherwin type reducer that has a wax base in lets say a ppg deltron or matrix mpb style product, it will peel. However if he did that I agree with you, no more painting, unless its latex.
Hi all I am the owner of the car and I will never do the same mistake I did. The owner of the shop asked me to ship the car on my expense ($3,800 round trip ) and he offer fixing spotes where the bubbles are. I refuse that and I said the whole car has to be redone He said whoever told you that he has no idea what he is talking about I decide not to ship the car after this conversation Before the car was shiped to me I purchased tickets for me and my son to fly to LA and check the car before shipping. Shope owner said he has no time for me to come and see the car. I said dont ship it before I see it. He said "I WILL CALL YOU WHEN ITS DONE" and he hung up on me People know this shop from social media. Beautiful cars, beautiful pictures. YES EVERYTHING ON PICTURES LOOKS BEAUTIFUL. ONLY ON PICTURES ,!!!!!, The paint job is estimated $15,000-$18,000 by few shops in NY, NJ and PA The car is not going back to LA, but I will make sure they pay for the paint job Thanks to all for reading my post
Good luck with getting them to pay for that. A lawyer will eat up half of the settlement. You do know you have to prove it was his fault the paint came off. Meaning you need to pay experts, ect. So the cost of $3800 shipping and lawyers fees and other costs, you may as well just***** it up and pay for the job yourself.
this car was shipped all the way across the country for work? wtf? why? i have seen this before, owner thinks grass is greener, then can't follow the build, make decisions, etc. it is just not a good way to get something custom done.
There's a way to handle this professionally and for little cost. The shop owner needs to fly out and look at the car, detailed HONEST notes in hand of their A-Z process. At that point he can****ess and plan for corrective actions. Were it my shop I'd pay the round trip truck ride if it turned out to be my error, and odds are it is theirs indeed. What's your future street creds and goodwill worth? If it's less than $4,000 I'd say it*****s to be you. there is indeed the possibility that the whole car need not be done. if it's only the hood then make arrangements with a shop on that side of the country, a friend or colleague, fix the damn thing and go home. Then again, why should we think for that shop owner as to how to solve this? If there's no will to make good, well, refer to the "...$4,000..." comment. Good luck y'all...
If you ship the pieces of the paint to me, we will run it through our lab and give you a written detailed explanation of paint failure. You can be given a million ways of the issue, but lab results are very accurate. We would need a gas lid plus loose paint. After test are ran we will ship back to you. One other thing that would help is We need to know from the shop the brand of paint, reducer used and we will pull msds on all products and run side by side comparison, however you would need to supply the competitive products if its nothing we sell through our retail side. Just let me know if you need this done.
Sealer must be re coated within a couple days if not sanded and resealed poor adhesion happens to the very beast at times.Might have been cured in a booth that would make the surface rock hard nothing would adhere to it. Im sure that it is very disappointing. Honestly if the paint shop will fix it freein a reasonable amount of time I would let them redo it. The way that peels back and a flexible I looks like acrylic enamel but a high end shop would be doing base coat clear. The solvent just rests on the top of the sealer so its like painting on clean glass wont stick Good Luck Baron von Vasnic
That*****s that this happen especially after the wait and cost, puts the owner in a tough spot. Those amounts you guys are mentioning with the original work, the shipping, and repair costs sound like a fortune to a poor guy like me. May be time to involve the courts.
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