Does anyone have information on how the tin was attached to the block of a V8-60 ? Can the tin be removed and then reattached later after the block is cleaned ? To me it looks like some type of spot brazing/soldering technique was used when looking at the pattern formed on the edge of the tin. I have a tinside in which the tin has detached from the block. The photos shown were found online, but the edge pattern is the same as mine.
Looks like overlapping spot welds. No idea how to fix it. Possibly soldering or furnace brazing, or some kind of JB Weld epoxy?
It looks a great deal like the automated electric weld that put a Model A gastank togrther...found this Ford description: “Built of terne plate, a rustproof form of steel, and fabricated by the seam resistance welding method, the tank is integral with the cowl of the car..." “Producing the Model A fuel tank involved the conquest of two peculiar difficult problems in electrical resistance welding. One of these problems was that of making a seam weld which would be absolutely water-tight throughout its considerable length; the other was that of welding terne plate, which is a steel plate that is coated with a lead alloy. That these problems have been taken thoroughly in hand is evidenced by the fact that by February the fuel department was able to make 2,500 of the new tanks a day”. “A seam weld is actually a series of spot welds with overlapping edges (by means of which the two pieces of steel are momentarily melted together, making the seam the strongest part of the Ford fuel tank). The fuel tank of the Model A is made of two sections, an upper and a lower, and the weld necessary to secure these together is longer (120 inches) than any line which could be drawn around the tank in a single plane”. “Each of the spot welds in this long seam weld had to connect perfectly with those on either side, or the tank could not be used” “Ford experimental engineers found that, with standard seam welding equipment, momentary peaks and depressions occurred in the current flow, causing alternate spots of burned stock and stock insufficiently welded, and consequently not tight. With terne plate as the material selected for fuel tank purposes, the problem became intensified, since terne plate burns more easily than uncoated metal---it will burn if its surface is rough or if it is uneven or if it is dirty, or for any of several other causes”. “Beginning with extra careful treatment and inspection of stock, the engineers worked their way through the problem. The standard seam-welding machine was virtually redesigned. The current transformer was enlarged; the arms from which the copper welding discs extended were shortened; Ford type electrodes, which give superior current efficiency, were installed; and a Ford type interrupter, which cuts the welding current 360 times a minute as a minimum, and thus prevents burning of stock under all ordinary circumstances, was put in place of the less efficient standard unit for that purpose; (and) the bearing in which the welding spindle ran was altered”. “By these and other measures, the problem of making a welded, rustproof fuel tank for the new car was solved. At present ten seam-welding machines containing the Ford improvements are being used for fabricating the Model A (and AA) tanks”. “Forty-four power presses are required to form each Model A gasoline tank assembly and prepare it for the seam-welding operation, as well as much other equipment. Ten presses blank and form the bottom; six prepare the top; sixteen are required for the speedometer cable housing and other fixtures; two form the splash plate; three rivet fixtures to the tank; one clips top and bottom together in position for welding; six punch holes and restrike the form”. “The fixtures which form part of the fuel tank assembly include inlet and outlet flanges, I believe I have seen it referred to as "submerged arc" too. Credit here to Steve Plucker, http://www.plucks329s.org/ His site contains all sorts of information on the Model A, both original data and his own research on History's Mysteries at the Rouge.
Submerged are was an early form of machine welding where the weld was done under a powder not unlike sand. It was still in use in the '70s believe it or not and is a verly ikely way that Fiord attached tin to a cast iron block. Good catch bruce. If it were mine I would use a torch and a rode bud and preheat the cast then laying the plate on it I would attempt to braze it. If the time is think enough maybe I would try to stick weld it with nirod but it will be harder to get it to seal up that way. Another option would be to drill and tap the cast and screw it on with machine screws or drill it and use hammer screws (they are self taping) then use sealer and seal it up.
It is my understanding that the tin sides were electric welded to the cast iron using SS rod. It took Ford many months of development time to perfect it. Dad worked on 60's for his midgets in the 30's and 40's. Then again in the 80's and 90's when we ran with the WRA. He said he never saw anyone who pulled the sides off a tin 60, and didn't wind up scrapping the block.
My thoughts on performing this repair are: 1. Go ahead and fully remove tin sides with a rose bud torch 2. Get block thermal Cleaned. 3. Use something like Kappa Tinning Compound (http://www.kappalloy.com/babbitt-tinning.php) and tin the full perimeter of where tin sides were originally attached. 4. Re-solder the tinsides in place. 5. Run a waterless engine coolant replacement, sold by Evans, that runs a very low system pressure.
BETTER OFF TO LEAVE THEM ON AND HAVE THE BLOCK DIPPED AND CLEANED. FRIENDS W/MIDGET RACERS HAD THEM START LEAKING AND NEVER ABLE TO RE WELD THEM,NEVER HEARD HOW THEY ACTUALLY WELDED THEM.
You may be able to solder the iron block but I don't think you will be able to get solder to stick to the stainless steel sides...maybe you could make new sides out of galvanized steel,solder takes to galvanize like ducks to water!..you may want to media blast the block with iron oxide granules too to get a clean surface.....let us know what you do and good luck!
Does anyone actually know the composition of the "Tinside" I assumed it was tin... is it something else?
Here's a patent on the block...look at # 41 in the drawings after opening the PDF. I don't see specifics on first glance. https://www.google.com/patents/US21...ved=0ahUKEwj2j8SvwtTJAhVEPT4KHV3dDRoQ6AEIJDAB
With the proper flux you can silfoss stainless to unlike metals. I had to braze a stainless flange on a compressor for a federal contract once. Spec called for stainless fittings and refrigeration lines and the compressor that we had to work with didn't come that way.
These days you can actually buy stainless solder. I imagine that you always could if you knew what to buy. But yes silver solder sticks just fine to stainless, not so much to cast iron, you have to get the iron too hot. When I first started learning about pipe fitting the old guy I worked with told me that silfoss was to the refrigeration business what brass was to the welding business.
I've silver brazed cast with 45% silver successfully in the past. Sil-fos will stick to stainless no problem with the proper cleaning and flux. The large cast block will take lots of pre-heat and careful post cool to have a successful finished product. The casting quality also plays a factor in the repair. If it is porous and contaminated, no deal. The casting will need to be prepared in kaowool ceramic blanket, wrapping it up real good and letting it cool for up to 48 hours. Cast is a funny animal and things can get away from you pretty fast in an environment with out proper set up and controls. as I type and think about it I like 'beaners idea of screw fasteners and sealant. I'd think about drilling the tinside and tapping the block and screwing the side back on after applying Loctite SI 5699. SI 5699 is a sealer adhesive. It has a pretty high temperature rating too over 600 degrees F intermittent and is oil resistant.
Not "TIN" they are actually STAMPED STAINLESS STEEL attached to the block. While going through the Ford Archives dad never found out HOW they did it. WHY they did it was because of core shift during casting. They were getting 1 out of 20 usable blacks. Thats when they started casted them with NO SIDES. "Tin Sides" are commonly called "37's" which is correct and incorrect. Tinners were casted in 1936 for the 37 model year. ALL Cast 37 style blocks were casted in 1937 and used in 37, 38, till Mid 39. No Blocks were casted in 1938. Casting of the "40" block started in early 1939 but were not used till ALL the "37"s we're used up. Than there is the confusing "40 Service Block". Looks like a 37 with breather in the bell housing but uses a 40 Crank & Oil Pan. Ford made SUPER THICK BEARINGS to use the 37 Crank in the 40 Block. I have a 40 Service Block and the casting code says it was made June 1942????? And carries a 1937 "52" designation
I have seen a few of these engines, quite some years ago, that had been produced by Ford. The fellow that restored my KK Offy Midgets had them laying around. The side plates were stainless steel and the welding was done by arc welding. The blocks were useless because the sides separated from the iron block due to dissimilar metal corrosion. We pondered the welding apparatus needed to do this work.
The supplied picture shows an overlapping resistance spot weld, to make a continuous seam. Same as fuel tanks process. Once the sheetmetal side comes loose in an area, there is corrosion and any reweld won't be successful.
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