Technical 20w-50 engine oil

Pretty much.

Mostly, we don't like facts to get in the way of our beliefs.

 

Yup....... you could put a nice, red bow on a pile of dog shit and folks would by it. I use Pennzoil because they have cool looking race cars. That's about as scientific as I get about oil and I have NEVER had an oil related problem in any of my cars. Same with my friends and their cars. I see threads like this and wonder how some guys get past all the stress of just owning a car. Seriously.

Now, someone post a "What color should I paint my car?" thread.

 

That's 2 different groups with different types inside each group. Different additive companies will each have different types and brands of ZDDP. The oil formulator chooses which to use based on different criteria such as anti-wear performance, anti-oxidation performance, compatibility with the other surface acting additives, cost, etc. Some only care about cost. For some cost doesn't matter, most are somewhere in between those extremes. How do you as a consumer know which is which? That's hard to say, MSDS sheets won't tell you. Neither will tech data sheets. Testing in a lab will help. Controlled field tests will also help. Those things are out of reach of most people. But you know if you grab the lowest cost no-name crap it's not gonna have hi performing additives in it. Though if it has an API license it has to meet a minimum performance level. Look for the API donut on the label. But remember that is a minimum performance level, most of the major lube companies have products that exceed that minimum level, and they tend to cost a little more.

 

These days, the minimum performance level for just about anything to do with cars is so much better than it was when the cars we like were made.....

I don't worry about oil. I have more important things to worry about, like ignition condensers.

 

That is one of the good things about the API oil licensing system, which ever oil you buy you can be assured it meets a minimum quality and performance level, and those levels have risen dramatically over the years. But my experience over 15 years in the lube business has been largely like yours. Over countless claims of component failures caused by oil, it's never once been the fault of the oil. Lack of oil maybe, but not the oil itself. That is why I remain skeptical about all these claims of cam failures from low zinc levels. How come you've never had a cam failure (or the millions of others like you)?

 

The cam failures ain't a myth, and when it happens on a fresh engine, it means that ground up metal is spread thru every passage and component in the engine that is connected to the oil pump. This means a teardown and clean up once again, unless you really have that much faith in your oil filter never having bypassed with that heavy oil most of us insist on using.
So we have the cost of a cam, lifters, gaskets, and any bearings that have been scored when the filter bypassed. And all that labor and time lost.
Me, I'd rather play it safe. If you have a really high lift flat tappet cam with radical ramps and the heavy springs required for such, remove the inner springs for break in, or get some of the special low ratio rockers to break in if you build a lot of motors to justify their cost, then replace with the correct rockers after breakin.
Use one of the currently available special break in oils, and when building the engine, use lots of good cam lube. Set the timing as close as possible and fill the carb(s) with fuel, connect the timing light to #1 plug wire. When you start it keep the revs up and set the timing for max adv using the timing tape or degreed damper you installed, and lock down dist. with engine still turning around 2K. Then wing it back and forth between 1500 and 2500 for about 30 min., then change to an oil intended for flat tappets use in your choice of synthetic or petro. If you changed springs or rockers, install those you intend to run, and you'l be in good shape.
To me it's worth the small extra cost and effort vs. the possibility of a wiped cam lobe.

 

I never said cam failures are a myth, I'm just skeptical of the conclusion that it's just the fault of the oil being used. Cam's have ALWAYS been the main concern when firing up a new engine, or one with a new cam, for the first time, this isn't something new. What was the research that lead to blaming the oil? How come millions of flat tappet cams on cars using SM oil, just like tfeverfred aren't failing all over the globe? Sorry, it's just my training to be skeptical until the evidence proves the theory. I haven't seen the evidence. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but nobody seems to have seen it, everybody seems to repeat what they've heard. That's not evidence, that's hearsay.

 

And I'm not saying that what I suggest is a cure all for flat cams, and that if you do as I've suggested you'll never have a cam failure.
What I'm saying is that I feel that what I've suggested, plus careful measurements of clearances to objects that can collide if not clearanced for the lift you have, lifters free to turn in their bores, etc., then you have done all you can do to help the cam live.
Except on my last engine, I went one step further with lifters that have a .012" hole from the oil chamber to the cam lobe contact face to introduce oil directly to the point of contact.

 

All the above is true. The issue and point of the discussion was whether oil brand will some how negate the careful prep and measuring. As yet, there's no proof of that.

 

Go to
dsutton@enginebuildermag.com

 

I work for a major oil company. If you want to know who makes Autozone,Advance Auto or Wal Marts private label brand.
Just step back and scan the oil shelf from one end to the other. The brand with the most shelf space is usually the company that supplies the stores ''private label oil''. Jim is most likely using Castrol in a Wal Mart bottle.

 

The original question was about an alternative to his original brand of oil, I say buy what you think is the best, change it when it looks dirty, and use a good filter (Napa Gold or Wix) and be done with it.

 

As to whether the oil is a problem or not , Howards Cams is offereing a warranty on thier flat tappet cams only IF , & only if,you use thier oil additive !
dave

 

Can't do that, it's against the Magnuson-Moss act. If they require their additive to quailfy for warranty, than they must give it to you. That's the law.

 

Same for Schneider.

http://schneidercams.com/oilinfo.aspx

 

Yup. How much MORE is the additive? Man, hook, line and sinker.

 

Like I said, they can't do that:

"Section 1 02( c) ofthe Act provides that: No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission [upon an affirmative showing by the party requesting the waiver.] 15 U.S.C. § 2302(c).

"no automobile manufacturer may condition his warranty of an automobile on the use of a named motor oil or on the use of its own automobile parts unless he shows that any other motor oil or automobile parts which are available will not function properly and will not give equivalent performance[.]" H.R. Rep. No 93-1107 at 36-37 (1974)."

https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/f...interpretations-magnuson-moss/00011-80821.pdf

If they require you to use a specific oil or additive to maintain a warranty, they have to provide it to you free of charge.

 

Nothing is "free", they'll just tack it on to the price of the cam. While I like the sentiment behind the legislation (I guess), I tend to appreciate even more the motivation behind the cam manufacturer. Mechanics and engineering types tend to think that way.

 

Check out the Lucas range...

 

Aren't overhead cam engines still non-roller? What is the difference in dynamics that lets those cams survive on modern oil?

 

they have little tiny valve springs, because there is less valvetrain mass to control.

 

Just like my flathead.

Also four valves (many). But they also rev higher than pushrod engines.

 

I wonder if they actually require the use of their oil or additive specifically for new cam break-in only to qualify for warranty?

 

As a practical matter, including a bottle of oil additive and assembly lube along with the cam will go a long ways to ensuring that it actually gets used on startup and break-in.

 

So using a break in oil and lubing up a new cam with moly or other heavy grease is not the way go any more?

 

The point is, they can require the use of an oil or additive that meets a certain specification, that is fine, but the consumer must be able to buy that oil or additive wherever they chose, from whomever they choose. They cannot require a specific brand, especially one that has to be purchased from them. If they do, they must supply it free of charge. The one caveat to this is if nobody else provides a lube or additive that meets the spec. But in that case they must make the spec available and have some process for certifying competitive products. The bottom line is, the requirement has to be based on a specification, not a brand. The specification and a way to meet it must be available to competitors, and the consumer has to be allowed to purchase a competitive product; or they must give the oil/additive to the consumer without charging for it.

 

When I had George @ Clay Smith grind me up some cams, they included a tube of lube with each cam. Seems simple enough and I'm sure the $2.00 was rolled into the price.

Besides the law, this nickel an dime BS seems silly. If you want a guy or gal to use your specific lube, give it to them with the cam. Over and done. If someone choose not to use it and it voids that grinders warranty, say so with the instructions.

 

There's a recent engine break-in thread going on here. I figure by now most engine builders are superstitious about what oil they recommend and mine said to use 10W-30 VR1 which I did.

A local speed shop has it for less than $7 a quart, which is not bad compared to what conventional oil goes for. I did buy a 6-pack on Amazon recently too, a little less expensive and free shipping over $35. Which immediately beats the sales tax add-on.