Technical BODY, Hoods

Hoods aint so tough. Well, some are, but this is about the easy part of knocking out a hood for the thin fenders.

Goes without saying that the hood top, the lid over the engine so to speak is the hard part. Even so, if you knock out an accurate template for it and do a little thinking ahead of time and pay attention to what you’re doing, you can do a hood top quite well. As proven by the well done magazine articles that pop up every now and then.
The hardest part on the hood tops is rolling in a belt line to match the one on the body. Even if you skip that step, it’s not noticed by too many and a hood sans belt line - once it gets a little color shot on it - looks about as good as all the rest.

Rootlieb makes a great hood and in fact I have one of their three piece units on the 32. That, along with the fact that I like the belt line on hood tops had me springing for a custom length hood with no louvers for the 31. The custom length bit added $50. to the regular price and they sent a hood that was right on the money. In fact, the front and rear edges are cut to match cowl and grill shell when the grille shell sits down where it’s supposed to on the 31 on 32 rails roadsters. 32 3/8" fwiw, but it will more than likely be different on your car. Measure carefully and make sure the grille shell is where it’s supposed to be and square with the cowl.

When I started on this project, every thing I read including radiator company brochures and catalogs had me thinking that a 32 radiator chopped 1" at the bottom was the so-called “hot setup.”
Maybe. Right now the hood line looks ok, but it would look just right and help the overall stance of the car if the radiator had been chopped 2". Some of you may be thinking that 4" is the correct chop. True on the 28-29's, but for the 30-31's it’s different. In fact, I’m thinking the 32's proper would look about right and have the proper hood line slope if the radiator was chopped 1" instead of stock height. As it is, my 32 has the radiator sitting about as low as it can go within reason and the hood line is not bad, but another inch down and it would be perfect.
As a small side note, the good looking Lokar roadsters have the front crossmember set lower in the frame than standard which brings the stock radiator down to a point where it generates a good hood line. Most everyone uses the Model A front crossmember - as Lokar does - in the 32 rails, but it’s usually set high to get the car down low. There’s other options there, such as notched front frame rails etc., but that doesn’t enter into this little discussion on a simple how to do it as far as hood side panels go.
Keep in mind too, that all the radiator chopping I’m talking about takes place at the bottom of the radiator as far as the 30,31 & 32's go. This is so the grille shell mounts on the radiator sides retain their proper relationship with the radiator top as pertains to where the grille shell sits.

The photo at the bottom shows how simple this project really is.
The most difficult part is generating a good posterboard template. I made two of them before I was happy.
Once that’s done and you have your sheet metal sheared to rough size you can tape the template to the sheet metal with 2-3 pieces of masking tape and outline it with a Sharpie fine point felt pen. I know that some have cautioned against the use of a Sharpie on primer as the marks won’t come out and will show through the finish coats of paint. I believe them - but I think the Sharpie used on bare metal won’t be a problem. The enviro style brake cleaner seems to take all the Sharpie ink off with no problems.
Once the “cut” lines are down, label them as such.
You’re gonna need a “bend” line top and bottom running the long way.
The top one is 1" down.
The bottom one is ½" up.
Be sure when you’re laying things out that you make a left and a right side and make notations to that effect right on the metal.
Nothing quite like having two nicely finished right hood sides.
Not that I’ve ever done anything like that. . . .

Note that the hood is a subtle parallelogram.
Required even if the grille shell is exactly square with the cowl hood piece as it is on my 31.
That has to do with how the hood sits on the grille shell and the cowl.

A couple of handy hints and a small confession.

I had the metal sheared to 24 x 36" which made it about 1-2" long on three sides and planned to cut it in the shear at my friends shop.
Shear the metal about 4-6" long from where the cuts will be made. This because shears - especially when working at the upper limits of the shears capacity - will try to fold over the cut off piece rather than shear it cleanly. In other words, shears don’t cut really narrow pieces worth a darn.
Fwiw, the shear we used was rated for 18 gage cold rolled maximum and that’s what we had.

The 18 gage is the confession part. 20 gage would have been better and in fact is what Rootlieb uses on hood side panels. I measured the 31's Rootlieb hood top and it is 18 gage.
And after buying the side panel 18 gage stuff, I measured the Rootlieb hood sides on the 32 and they are in fact 20 gage.
It did work out ok, but 20 gage would have been a little easier to work with and more than likely a little easier on the shear.

Four more photos and text coming - so hang in there a bit before posting.

 

This photo shows the bend at the bottom of the hood panel. This is the limit of the bending angle for most sheet metal brakes.
I did try bending it a little farther, to 180 degrees in my 5 ton arbor press with the hood outside face down on a hardwood backer, but the square edge of the ram put a few minor kinks in it as I went along. If I would have had a helping hand, using some 6" or so long rounded edge aluminum pieces I have would have stopped that.
It didn’t matter in the end. My bench vise has aluminum jaw covers and I used it to bend the lower hood edge to 180 degrees. Hold the hood panel up with one hand and crank the vise with the other. It came out quite smooth and the hood stayed straight along the bottom. It may stay that way or I may put a piece of welding rod - 1/16" or so - and fold the bend the rest of the way around it. That’s the way Ford does them, but right now everything fits ok as it is.

 

This photo shows the upper back edge of the hood panel’s 90 degree bend cut away for cowl clearance. You can just barely see the ½ x 1" hood bar underneath.
The top of the hood is hung from a ½ x 1" x .060 wall piece of rectangular tubing that runs from grille shell to cowl.

 

Shown here is the start of the hood brace proper.
I have a similar design under the hood of the 32. The angles aren’t too noticeable as the brace is powdered black and the hood underside is black as is the rest of the car.
There will be a similar brace at the rear as well.
Both of these tacked braces are templates and will be used to roll out a curved brace.

Note that the hood bar proper has the ½ x 1" rect tubing oriented 1" side vertical.
On top of that lies another piece - call it the hood frame bar - of ½ x 1" rect tubing oriented 1" side horizontal.
The cross braces get welded to that.
Don’t be fooled by the short piece of ½ x 1" on the drivers side as it was used to shim the brace up for the photo.

What happens with all these pieces is that once the hood brace is welded together creating a frame within the hood top, the drivers side hood bar, hood frame bar and hood top lip gets drilled for a pair of stainless locating pins.
Start by drilling a couple of 1/8" pilot holes dead center (transversely speaking) in the drivers side hood bar. Space them as you wish.
This can be a little tricky as you’re drilling the narrow side, but it’s not bad if you go slow and pay attention. Use a drill press and drill through top and bottom.
Clamp the hood bar, hood top and hood frame bar together and drill a 1/8" pilot hole through all three using the hood bar holes as a guide. Having it all mocked up on the car as it will be is the way to do it. That way you’ll be making sure everything fits.
Remove the hood top and frame, set the side panel in place and drill the upper lip on it to match the locating pins.
Enlarge all holes to 1/4" which is the diameter of the stainless locating pins.

Weld the stainless pins to the hood bar. A nice trick here is to weld on the bottom only where the pin is flush with the bottom surface of the hood bar. Chamfer the pin prior to. As there are no real stresses on the locating pins, the weld on the bottom is enough. If the 1/4" hole is accurately sized it will reinforce the locating pins from side to side movement and once the hood bar is powdered or painted, it’s pretty well glued in anyway.
(The stainless pins weld to the mild steel very well. No special techniques or rod required, but note that it’s not a critical area of the car.)

 

Here’s a shot of the hood panel on it’s initial install. It’s hard to see, but note that it conforms to both grille shell and cowl quite well and the 180 degree reinforcing fold at the bottom has the hood bottom edge running on a very subtle curve. Nice part is when you press the lower rear corner into place, the hood panel “pops” or “oil cans” leaving a very subtle bulge outward and that helps in the clearance dept. It bulges due to it’s trying to follow the curved line of the cowl as well as the almost straight lesser curved sides of the grille shell.
With the wide shouldered 455 Buick every little bit of clearance helps.

Dzus ****ons - the captured style - go in each lower corner for hood retainment.
The Dzus ****ons along with the locating pins up top take care of keeping the drivers side hood panel in place.

Since the p***enger side is where the hinges go, that side is retained with three 10-32 flathead allen stainless machine screws. When you do these, you’ll want a bit of a countersink on the 10-32 weld bungs in the hood bar on that side. Drill the p***enger side upper side panel hood lip with a clearance drill for the 10-32's and use them to pull the sheet metal down into the countersink. That will leave the top right side flush so the hood can close down on it with no problems.

Getting back to the drivers side, a pair of flat (cut from 1/8" thick cold rolled) steel hooks will go through the milled out hood frame bar and the hood top lip sheet metal. Things work out just right here as the hooks pivot on 1/4" studs welded to the hood bar proper and the bottom end of the hooks hang down from the pivot point a little ways and are controlled by a Heim jointed rod/locking mechanism.
More on that when I get to it.

If you’re real curious about the latching method used, I can post some photos from the 32.

All in all, making these hood side panels consisted of driving to a shop across town, getting the steel cut, coughing up the $$, laying the metal out with the already made template and driving to the muffler shop where the shear and brake are, cutting to size and bending as well as the work at home. It took about five easy hours to get to the point shown in the last photo.

A whole lotta guys on the HAMB are building one-off cars and you can’t order hood sides for them just anywhere. Even if you are doing a stock hood length A or Deuce, you can save yourself a chunk of money if you’re willing to do without the lower belt line - as I am.
Total cost for the hood side panels was $23. 20 gage steel would probably come in under the $20. mark. With the cost for a pair of commercially made hood sides running about $125, plus tax, plus shipping, not too bad a deal.

Best part is, you made it and you made it to fit.

Now . . . where’s that louver guy?

 

Great tech stuff. Gives me some inspiration to do my 31. What did Rootleib charge for just the top? I've only talked to Hagens, and they were reasonable ($190). Thanks for the clear pictures and detailed explanations.

 

Looks good, thanks for the walk through.
I am considering trying to bend a one piece hood for my A, this type of post continues to build my confidence.

 

All you new guys...Let me introduce Jay Carnine!
A master at work...in his home garage by the way!
EXCELLENT as usual Jay. THANKS.
Ryan, is TECHOMATIC up and running yet?

Bill

 

Another C9 post I'm saving for my '31 roadster build--thanks!

Do you have a photo of the roadster from the side with the top hood installed? I'd like the eyeball the slope for myself...

 

Copied and saved....

 

HotrodA - the Rootlieb hood top was plain, no louvers.
Price $220. + $50. = $270. for the custom length.
(32 3/8" on my car, a stock 31 is 31 5/8")

Here's a couple more pics fwiw.

 

And another.

 

Zonkola, I don't have a dead on side view with the hood top on, but here's one that's close.
I'll pop a shot next time the 31 is rolled out.

 

C9, valuable info,you saved me a big problem with the radiator info. I was about to screw up and order the wrong one for my 31, thanks for sharing experience. The little details can kill you.

 

One thing I meant to point out was how to get the metal sheared and bent when you don't have access to shear or brake.

Buy the metal cut to rough size.
Keep in mind the bit about it being 4-6" oversize.

Take it home and lay it out.
Make sure to make a right and left side.
If you've ever made anything, you know how easy it is to get on a roll and end up with two lefts or two rights.

Label the cut and bend lines very carefully and very obviously.
Label the panels left and right as well.

Set it up so it will be sheared right on the line.
Have the bend lines laid out so they will be right in the middle of the bend.

Take it back to the sheet metal shop and have them shear it to finished size and do the bending.
Tell them to cut right on the line and to bend it so the bend line is in the middle of the bend.
They'll know where to set the shear and brake to accomplish that.
As long as the guy is consistent with where he shears and bends - and they almost always are - both sides will be identical.

Since an absolutely precise size etc. is not required, you do have a little room for error.
Height-wise, a 1/16" or 1/8" are not gonna make much difference, but more than likely if you laid the panel out well the sheet metal guy won't have any problems.
They work to close tolerances anyway.

As far as costs go, I'd bet it would run about ten bucks at most shops and not over twenty.

I'm a sheet metal amateur for sure and the shearing and bending took me about 15 - 20 minutes once I got started.
An experienced sheet metal worker should be able to knock both sides out in half the time.

 

I have one word for that: Tech-o-matic! This is a prime example of what should be archived. Great thread C9, nice work too. Keep it up.

 

BTTT. This shouldn't be on the 3rd page already!

Great tech post Jay. I always enjoy reading your how to's.

I am waiting for your 32 style windshield frame for the 31. I need to do a similar thing for my rpu.

Neal

 

Thanks Neal.

Here's the preliminary plan for the windshield.

Goin to Fresno to get the metal for it this week.

Both mild steel and stainless.

Run a few experiments on milling etc.

Then to my friends shop in the Southland early July where he has a roller so we can roll out the curved lower section.

We'll probably run some experiments with setup etc. with the mild steel to see how it works out and if it looks good, we'll go ahead and do the stainless one.

So maybe I'll have a mild steel one left over if the stainless works out ok.

Right now, one stumbling block is the groove for the weather strip between cowl and w/s frame and posts and w/s frame.
I think not doing an outside groove and gluing the right kind of weatherstrip in will do the trick.

Right now, the 31 is planned to run *******, but I've been known to change my mind.

Either way though, weatherstrip is needed when it rains.

In case I didn't mention it, the w/s will be flat, similar to a 32 with it's rectangular tubing frame and not like the Model A's with their round tubing frames.

 

Jay -

The windshield project sounds interesting.

I have 30-31 roadster windshield stanchions, posts, and dash rail that I plan to use to convert my cab into a "roadster". The Model A parts seemed to fit the body of the 32-33 cab better than 32 stuff, but the flat frame would help the 32 look.

Keep us posted on the progress.

Neal

 

Here's a quote from the last issue of the FSRA newsletter:

"As far as windshields for the 30-31 roadsters go there’s more than a few theories floating around. Here’s what I’ve found by research, measuring and fitting up actual components.
Model A roadsters came from the factory with two different windshield frame heights. The standard at 15 1/4" high and the deluxe at 13 ½" high. These measurements taken at either side of the windshield frames along the vertical side pieces measuring extreme top to bottom.
There are four different windshield frames available from the aftermarket. The 15 1/4" and 13 ½" stock ones as mentioned as well as 2" chopped versions of each. These chopped windshield frames come in at 13 1/4" and 11 ½".
To give you an idea of what one looks like, the 11 ½” version is very close in appearance to the 2" chopped 32 windshield. In fact the 2" chopped 32 windshield measures 11 ½”. The differences between the two, besides the rounded tubing used on the Model A frame and the rectangular tubing used on the 32, the lower horizontal piece is different due to the difference in cowl shapes between the 32's and the Model A’s.
All that’s well and good, but here’s the trick to running the 11 ½” windshield frame: use the 2" chopped windshield post from the 32 on the 30-31 Model A stanchions. It’s not a direct bolt-on, but very close. I did try an upper post from my 32 and it’s a good fit on the Model A stanchion. The flaw is that the windshield ends up leaned forward about 10 degrees on a car that sits close to level. Decidedly uncool.
The fix is easy though. The Model A stanchions, re-pro’s in my case, are hollow and the ledge just under the pivot stud has a 1/8" piece of steel welded in. It’s an easy fix to cut the ledge down and weld in a new piece of 1/8" steel so that the pointed stop on the 32 upper post ends up in the right place. A little judicious filing and you’ll have the two sides perfectly matched as to angle.
The lean-back angle - with the mocked up windshield frame - on my 31 sits at 15 degrees from true vertical and to my eye looks about right."

I have the 32 posts mocked up on the car now and can shoot a couple o pics if it would help.

 

Jay -

I knew the part about the std and deluxe Model A, but hadn't thought about using 32 w/s posts. I was just planning on chopping my SS 31 posts.

I would like to see pics of your set-up.

BTW, did you get my email a while back with the invitation attached?

Neal

 

Photos? Yes, please!

 

H.A.M.B. - THROW BACK THURSDAY
As of 10:57 this morning, this was the very last thread on the forum, number 396,740 from 2003. Wonder how long it will take it to cycle back through again. By the way...some pretty cool tech thoughts here on hot rod hoods!

 

Holy mother of looking for 13 year old threads.