Technical Switching grades and types of engine oil and its affects on engine noise, exhaust etc.

That's two...
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1415835#Post1415835

This stuff is all over the map.

 

One thing I'm not real clear on, is this zinc/phosphorous deal and camshaft failure basically an issue only during the initial engine and camshaft breakin, or is this an ongoing concern?

 

ongoing.

 

Bingo,,I had attended a Seminar years ago with the FAA, Oil rep was there and dispelled the myth about weight changing oil,He said as you the Oils are Chemically tricked to provide the same protection as the higher weight, but staying at the lower viscosity

 

Wow crazy oil rant going on here, anyway we switched the oil to Valvoline 20w50 vr1 and it runs like a top, better oil pressure than the Rotella and the engine runs nice and smooth now, no more smoke. It's obvious the Royal Purple synthetic is just not a smart idea for any led school motor with larger tolerances. Lesson learned for us now. The only advantage we really saw wth the thinner RP was quicker start up times but that is t a huge deal to us. I think the Valvoline vr1 is a great oil from what I'm learning and il switch over soon myself

 

Well, you aren't going to like it...
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/bpo-009-7139/overview/
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy lobes, HIT number of 38, which isn't crazy aggressive by modern standards, but quite a bit more than a typical old school race flat tappet, 355 lbs over the nose, cam has about 10,000 miles on it, just put it back in, will probably be in there for another 10,000, looks great.

Here you go, this is what you are looking for.
http://www.amref.com/Media/Files/bp_pb/7139_40_15_17_BP_PG1_Monograde_HP_Oils_PB.pdf

 

recently read: Zinc levels, Viscosity, Synthetic, Conventional oil are not what determines an oil's wear protection capability - it is the base oil and it's additive package "as a whole". it is the "load carrying capacity/film strength" - the higher the PSI the better protection: over 90,000 = outstanding; 75,000-90,000=good; 60,000-75,00=modest, below 60,000=undesirable.
Zinc/ZDDP=family of additives called Zinc DiakyldDithioPhosphates. The Truth About Zinc & Motor Oil:
www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/zinc-in-motor-oil/

 

That's why I included the Mean and Average numbers, which show that the typical level of zinc in Rotella is right around 1300 ppm, even if they only claim it at 1200. What you're seeing in the data I posted is variability from batch to batch, which I have to be honest, seems a bit too wide in my opinion as well. But the lowest level at 1138 is not far off their stated level of 1200. Seems like their QC methods are set to ensure that they don't fall excessively low, but will allow for a higher level, so it doesn't bother me so much. If the variance was the other way, where the mean and the average levels were far lower, that would be concerning, that they let it go up, not so much.

Note, I would expect to see variance in Brad Penn oils as well, but I bet it's tighter because they blend in far smaller batches, probably up to 10,000 gallons MAX. Rotella being the #1 highest volume diesel engine oil is likely line blended, not in small batches, which would account for the variability seen. Note, Valvoline probably line blends VR-1 as well, so expect to see the same kind of variability with that.

It CAN be aggressive, not necessarily that it WILL be. It also depends on the heat the oil runs at, because heat is what activates the sulfur/phosphorus compounds, so a cooler running trans may not see the same aggression. And it can also depend on the actual compounds used, because some lube companies will use less aggressive compounds that will not attack the yellow metals as much. But the bottom line is, transmissions designed for GL-4 spec you're not supposed to run GL-5 in them for the above reason.

Note that the truck industry got away from using those gear oils in manual shift transmissions years ago and it is much more common to use what amount to SAE straight 50 grade engine oils.

 

I should just let Blue One take the blame, but it was actually me. I'm the bad guy.

Hey, it started out innocently enough, I just answered the guys question with my opinion. Then Crazysteve came out with guns blazing, and we were off to the races (pun intended).

 

Did you check the link in post #91? Under 1000 PPM, which will DEFINATELY get me it DEEP shit. One thing you need to keep in mind, at 350+ over the nose, it only takes ONE oil change with low levels of ZDDP ( I think its ACTUALLY the Phosphorus part of the ZDDP that really matters, but I am not an oil engineer), you have wiped the cam, at least with the sort of lobes and valve spring pressures I am talking about.
This thread has prompted me to do some more digging, in spite of what some guys are saying, I am sticking with the Brad Penn 7139, I am not willing to take a chance on the VR-1 either.
When you wipe a cam, its not the cam itself that's a big deal, its the cast iron particles that get embedded in the skirts and bearings before you catch it. I know most guys on here just whistle a happy tune and bang another cam in the motor, but if I lose a cam, its teardown time, and that's just not worth saving $25-$30 on an oil change to me. I think I will just start buying the 7139 by the case, and save that way.

(the next part is not referring to you Blues4U, you haven't jumped on the "540Rat" bandwagon)
I have seen all the bullshit, ooops, I mean "meaningful scientific discussion" about ZDDP not "mattering", yes, its all good, you that believe that are MUCH smarter than me, and all the cam grinders and engine builders that present all that 'meaningless" anecdotal evidence about flat tappet cam failures with low ZDDP oils, and I defer to your superior link posting skills, but I am stupid, thanks, and I will keep foolishly wasting my money on worthless high ZDDP oils...

 

I wasn't always an electrician; I worked as a mechanic for 5 years and personally averaged at least 10 oil changes a week; that's in excess of 2500 changes just at work. And the shop location was less than a 1/2 mile off of Interstate 5, so many were on vehicles that were definitely 'fully warmed up' (as opposed the neighborhood customers who drove in with barely-warm cars). You quickly learned on these to check the oil sticker for weight before draining so you got the drain pan located right or you were cleaning multigrade up off the floor when it gushed out...

Doing a bit of research into this, you'll find that many fleet manufacturers/owners are reluctant to adopt 'fuel saving' oils because of the poorer wear protection given by these thinner oils. And even some proponents of these oils will grudgingly admit that their use in worn or 'loose' (compared to modern) motors can result in 'issues' (much like the problems experienced by the OP...). Techno-babble notwithstanding, these oils are NOT 'the same' as older oil types and won't always work in older motors.

And this problem will only get worse. With modern vehicles increasingly chasing fuel economy, the availability of compatible oils for older motors will continue to go down. The days of picking up your favorite oil 'flavor' at the local store are coming to a close...

And as a side note, as an electrician I'm fully aware that the techno-babble claims of the 'high performance speaker cable' industry are just that, babble. But according to them, fully backed by 'laboratory tests'....

 

FWIW, the story is that the monograde Brad Penn mineral oil that I use is actually based loosely on, and made from the same base stock as the old Kendall GT-1 that was the racers choice in the sixties.

 

Why do you say I wouldn't like it? It looks like a decent product to me. I know Brad Penn is blended by American Refining Group in Pennsylvania. They specialize in refining Pennsylvania grade crude (very good quality crude) oil into high quality base oils. One of the last refineries doing this. Most have moved on to using lower quality crude, but newer hydro treating processes that are less reliant on the quality of crude oil. I expect that Brad Penn product is made of a decent highly saturated paraffinic Group II base oil. It has a decent flash point, though with a pour point of -22F, that may be pushing it for you in Winter (I'm assuming you see at least a couple of weeks of some pretty low temps we don't experience around here). But you probably have block heaters or something to keep the engines from reaching those temps. It's got a good level of zinc at 1500 ppm, and a good TBN of 10.6. And like I said above, because it's a small plant blending small batches they probably have much better product QC and less variability in blends. The one thing that does concern me is the 1.2% sulphated ash level, as high ash levels can lead to piston deposits. It looks like an older formulation with higher levels of metallic additives. Other than that ash level, and possibly an issue with cold starts, it looks like a good product.

 

I figured you wouldn't like the monograde. And yes, I park my rump-rump rides when winter hits, I no longer have the balls to drive 450hp, 4.56 geared cars in ice and snow....

 

What, Ice ,snow and cold on Canada's Left coast.
-22f, heck that's what winter in Manitoba is like, and colder to -32f.......LOL

 

Yea, really, it always cracks me up when some guy in Minnesota makes a comment about how cold my winters must be, living in Canada and all.
We will get icy roads basically in December and January, and SOMETIMES a week or two of snow. I think last year it snowed three times, was melted by noon all three times. The last time I remember us really getting any meaningful snow that stuck for more than a couple days was 2009.

 

We have been real lucky so far, really no snow, was green until a few days back. But this morning 28 mile drive to work, fog and more fog, highways icy, and temps at -3c or about 27f.
I imagine a lot of guys drive old cars/trucks and bikes in your area almost year round.....

 

Not really, here in Surrey, you hardly ever see them, even in summer. More so in Maple Ridge and Langley.

 

What no Hotrods at Surrey Place or going to West Wally High....

 

I have been doing more digging into Rotella, remember I said it changed 3 times? The date on the oil in the above link was 2007, 979ppm, I have found a couple other guys that had cam failures on Rotella in 2006. It started out at 1400 ppm Zddp, what follows is anecdotal, not hard scientific evidence, but I am finding indications that Rotella dropped to under 1000ppm in 2006/2007, then went back up to 1200ish. That's enough to put me off, I don't want my engines used as guinea pigs...
Blues4U, do you work for Shell? Can you find any test results from the 2005/2007 time frame?

 

More on the man, the legend, the "oil guy" aka "540rat"...
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-tech-performance/2484100-list-of-flat-tappet-oils.html
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ar-test-and-lab-test-data.html#post1582022844
Of course, this stuff is from a bunch of gold-chainer bastard Corvette guys, so some of you hambers wont want to have anything to do with it...

 

Unfortunately we are probably only "safe" to run oils aimed at the collector car industry such as penn or vr-1 any other can change formula at the drop of the hat because we are not the target market so I guess we pay a little more for that added insurance

George , I read that penn is the exact formula of old Kendall .. I'm not sure how it shook it but I believe Kendall was sold but the refining company held the original race formulas and they didn't purchase those or something like that I guess that's the whole bit of " the green oil " on the can

 

That's pretty close to what I heard as well, the mineral based oil anyway.

 

That's what the Operator's manual calls for, but long ago the cluck behind the counter said 90 wt. gear oil would be fine. I never paid it much attention, gear oil is certainly easier to find than straight 50 wt.

 

Personal observation here. I had a 64 Cadillac. I rebuilt the engine and before fiting it up looked in the owners manual to see what was recommended by the factory back when it was new. Summer..... 20W
Winter ..... 0W

Huh? I have never seen any .... EVER!

It got 5W30.... Seemed happy with it. That happened to be what Ford recommended in the 4.6L. That motor had some oil related problems early on. Several cities were using straight 30w in all of their vehicles. When cold the oil pressure would be high enough to blow the filters off. Relief valve wouldn't work right with the heavier oil.

Sent from my LG-H343 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Yeah I don't know where this falls in here... but i never trusted the synthetic oils from the start. And like a dummy i tell them to put conventional oil in my new jeep jk! Haha. May be wrong on that choice but its hard to lose the old for the new.
But if we ALL took a stand and NEVER bought "new" oils... (Engine Lives Matter) we would get them to turn back the clock!!!! Lets do it

 

No, I do not work for Shell, they are a competitor, but I do have access to tons of used oil analysis data. Don't know if it goes back to 2005-07 time frame though, seems like we did a cut off some years back. I'll look and see what I can find, that would be interesting.

 

all Zinc/ZDDP is not the same - some "slower" & some "fast" burn- detergent & dispersant additives "compete" against ZDDP - like in oils designed for diesels & non-diesels with EGR systems -

 

Well, like I said a few pages back, oil threads are always interesting. After wading through all the information graciously offered by all in this thread, I'm not sure I'm any the wiser. Sure was a lot easier when I could just go down to the local Ma & Pa parts store an pick up a case (24) of Wolfs Head or Valvoline straight 40wt racing oil.
FWIW, I did see the local Rural-King had VR-1 20-50 @ $29.95/case of 6 a few weeks ago.

 

put a can of STP in it. oil is oil , to argue about oil is pointless