Technical Switching grades and types of engine oil and its affects on engine noise, exhaust etc.

I couldnt be more wrong? Nah. Just good business for them to spend as little as they have to.
But i understand.
Its just that they should be formulating ALL the oil that we need. Old AND new and with the best protections for each. Not just meeting in the middle.
They would make more money if they made us oil and labelled it for old cars. SPECIALTY brews $$. Just like the crappy coffee i see people buy for $5.
Still just sucks to me and i don't have sympathy for there job getting harder.
Big companies spend big money but make big profit.
No tears from me.
Just make us some good oil.

 

Yeah I get the new car thing... Semi trucks still have alot of gears too.
Maybe a cool old diesel motor would be the ticket.
Thanks for the info though.

 

You give alot of good info dude but this brings up a question... Do we really have info that adding stuff to oil makes the mix bad in different ways? Wouldnt they warn us on the bottles to NOT do that? You know what im saying?
Are there any tests being run that show if you add stp or whatever seafoam product or any of the other crazy additives out there that they ruin any of the intended protections?
Seems they have alot out on the shelf these days to add to gas and oil.
Thanks for any info.
I remember sawdust used to be good for super old cars gear oil? Wasnt that a thing? Hahaha.

 

Ok, what the hell's this Delo you speak of Jeff?

 

Really? Do you really think there would be a market for a product like this?? Amazing that no-one has thought of targeting this market before! I think you may have a big future in marketing research...

 

Thanks for this thread guys. I change my oil today to Castrol GTX diesel. I am going to run diesel in it until they drop the numbers where I can't.

bedwards

 

I apologize, I was too short on my answer to you. I owe you and anyone else reading a better answer than that.

STP claims that their product has ZDDP. We discussed this on another thread. A couple of guys contacted STP and asked how much zinc was in their product, they would't give a straight answer, they just kept talking around it, would not give a typical zinc content level. They told one of the guys that 1 can of STP oil treatment contained enough zinc to raise the level of zinc in 4 - 5 qts of motor oil to the level of pre-reduced ZDDP oil.

Well there's a problem with that, somebody sent a sample off to be analyzed, and you can read the analysis here:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701357

And you can find the SDS for the product here: http://www.stp.com/sites/default/files/STP Oil Treatment (2015-06).pdf

So basically, what these tell us is that STP oil treatment basically consists mostly (60 - 100%) of "Mineral Oil and Petroleum Distillates" (very high viscosity mineral oil), and <5% of a proprietary long chain Calcium alkyphenate sulfide (a long chain polymer, similar to a viscosity modifier, that gives the product the thick, gooey, sticky texture). The oil analysis shows the zinc content at 569 ppm, which is less than most all API SN spec motor oils. So no, the ZDDP in STP oil treatment will NOT increase the zinc level of the motor oil in your engine, in fact it will effectively DILUTE it. The high viscosity oil will mix with the engine oil and cause a slight increase in viscosity, but the real danger is the heavy load of long chain polymers that can lead to heavy deposit build up, particularly on the pistons around the rings and the top ring land and piston crown. These deposits will lead to stuck piston rings and cylinder bore polishing, which will lead to more combustion gas blowby and more oil consumption, which will lead to more piston deposits, and around and around it goes.

 

Thanks for the in-depth, BLUES. So many questions answered.
I recall Courtesy Chevrolet supplying a can of STP with their over the counter crate 327s in 1963.
Also recall Ramsay Lopez carefully assembling TWO in a row...both spun con rod bearings inside of 30 miles!
Third engine supplied (under warranty!) with NO can of STP, and a stern written note from the Service Manager, Ron Dunn: "Due to recently found oiling situation, under no circumstance use additives with break in oil, such as STP."
Ron Dunn was our age, and lived around the corner from Ramsay and me.
-just an addendum to the annals of the HAMB...

 

Delo is Chevron's diesel oil. Their specs show 1300 ppm zinc for Delo. http://www.deloperformance.com/en-u... 15w40_e_c&mtid=744icg56377&slid=&product_id=

 

I do know some VERY savvy engine builders who still use STP as an assembly lube. Some use it straight, some mix it 50/50 with a 30 or 40 weight monograde. This is used as a bearing lube, not cam-lifter. Its not something I have ever done, but I sure wouldn't want to call out some of the guys I know that do.
I used to use Lubri-plate 105 for this, as well as at the valve spring/retainer interface, with moly-slip on the pushrod ends, cam lobes and lifter face and a light wipe of 30W on the ring faces and skirts, a few years back I switched to Torco MPZ for bearings AND cam lube, quik-seal on the cylinder walls with a very light wipe of mineral 30W on the skirts, dry ring faces.
Lately I am thinking about switching to this stuff in place of the MPZ.
http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/html/cmw_oil_company_engine_assembly_lube.html

Nobody in their right mind would pop open a can and dump it into the engine.

 

Barney's First Car!

 

Man, that took me back...about 45 years!

 

Andy says "Hey"...

 

I was told it has 1700 ppm with the ZDDP so I might have been told wrongly but my motor likes it better then the rest of the diesel oils.

 

Thanks man. Good to know.

 

I'm gettin me a can of sawdust (stp) and putting it in tmrw! Smooth as silk for a couple of days eh?

 

I would give 300 for that 54.

 

So just wondering what you think of Driven Racing Oil... kinda confusing after i read from the website info about the ZDP but they do have conventional 10/40 that has high levels of ZDDP. It is specially formulated for alot of hot rods...
Used any ever?
Thanks.

 

Yeah i'm a bit confused again because Driven Race Oil (the way i am reading it) is saying that diesel motor oils would be bad for our gas engines because of the high contents of detergents... no bueno.
And they say alot about MANY different kinds of ZDDP formulations... maybe no bueno.
And alot is said about how critical it is to blend them at the right temperature, and how they act at too high and too low a temp.
So not all ZDDP's are the same?...
Dangit I thought i had a grasp about this.
I don't care if special oil cost over $9/qt. Just want to be clear about it working.
Does anyone remember ZDDP additive on the shelf ever? They also say that it was sold that way in the past.

 

What about this stuff? http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

 

Sweet.
Lets post more on here so we all know how many companies are doing this.
Thanks.
Good info on the website.
Just hope they used the right new zddp at the right temp and the correct blah blah blah...

 

FYI, I finally had some time to go in and do a query on this data, this is what I came up with.

Not a lot of samples from this time period, but I have 33 samples from 2005, and 65 samples form 2006.

For 2005 the lowest Zinc level was 1226 ppm, the highest level was 1545 and the average was 1367 ppm.

For 2006 the lowest Zinc level was 1030 ppm, the highest level was 1760 and the average Zinc level was 1418 ppm

That's actually pretty close. I don't think Shell did any reformulating of the product in the final year of the CI-4 specification, I think it's just variability in their blending, we've seen some pretty wide swings in the additive levels. Keeping in mind that this is the highest volume diesel engine oil sold in the US. They sell a lot, so they blend a lot, and they probably don't blend in small easy to control batches, I'll make an assumption here that they use line blending, where the base oil is sent down a pipe, and the additives are added into the base oil as it travels down the pipe. The final blend ends up being pumped into large holding tanks, and from there into packages (drums, pails & bottles). This method is efficient, but it does have wider variability vs blending small batches in a 5000 - 10,000 gallon tank.

 

One of my favorite shows. Such great characters.

 

Speaking strictly for myself, its hard to be happy about the sort of swing we have seen in test results, when the result of getting a batch outside the acceptable range is a tear-down.

 

No, I've never used any, and have no analysis or testing of it. I was asked about this stuff earlier this year by my brother's father-in-law, who owns a 34 3-window and a 57 T-Bird. He had the same questions as everyone else, but had pretty much already resolved to using this oil. So after he asked me I looked them up and read their website, and I really can't comment on their products, they may be perfectly fine, but their website reads amateurish to me. Worse than that, it just sets off all my senses, it screams "scam" in my opinion. Somebody trying that hard to diss competitors must have a weak product themselves. Just my opinion. The page on "Diesel Engine Oil Has Changed" reeks of bias and misinformation. The statement: "The American Petroleum Institute’s new heavy-duty engine oil categories effectively eliminate backwards compatibility in the industry. " is pure, unadulterated horse shit. The new CK-4 oils are fully compatible with CJ-4 and earlier oils, the specification raises performance levels in several categories; increased resistance to Oxidation and Aeration, and improved Shear Stability. These are good things. If they feel the need to mis-inform and mislead customers like that, then I have to question their integrity, which causes me to question the integrity of their products. Again, the products may be great stuff, I don't know; I just don't like their marketing approach and their cheesy website. It reeks of snake oil sales.

 

Whew Just finished reading this entire thread at one sitting! I've enjoyed it, many good points and counterpoints presented, particularly by Blues 4U and Falcon George.
I'm an Amsoil dealer, been selling their products maybe 15 years now, but I first started using them way back in the 70s, and I've always found their products to be honestly presented and to perform well in their intended use as specified. One car in particular convinced me of their quality, an OT Lincoln Mark VIII that I owned for over 20 years.
The trans used a "lockup" clutch in the torque converter that developed a shudder on part throttle engagement as did most Fords of the time of early 90s. Amsoil ATF fluid cured it permanently. The engine was a rather complex one with DOHC and 4 valves to cyl. super long timing chain to drive it all and from the oil pump to the cam bearings in the heads was a long passage. Engine @ about 25K developed a clatter in the valve train on cold starts. Amsoil filter and 0W-30 premium synthetic oil cured that. I could go on forever on anecedotal stuff on Amsoil, but suffice it to say I have the utmost confidence in their products.
So I have both my hot rods on Amsoil.. The roadster has SBC that uses one of the aggressive lobe profiles George spoke of from Comp Cams. I built the engine a bit tighter than I once did on clearances, so after a break in oil frorm Gibbs, I've been using 10W-40 "Premium Protection" Amsoil Synthetic, and I do have the lifters with oil hole in the face.
The coupe has SBF, and I bought the car, no idea on engine clearances, but the engine builder who did the engine told the previous owner top use 20W--50. He was using Valvoline VR1, but I have changed to Amsoil "Z Rod", still in 20W-50. It does have B303 hyd roller cam, so no worries about cam and lifter wear.
Both of these oils are high ZDDP, and I've based my choice almost completely on the success I've had in the past with Amsoil.
B4U, you haven't said much about synthetics in hipo engines and I'm sorta curious about your thoughts.

 

I went back and added some hi & lo zinc level info.

 

I can offer this - I know many people who use these oils, including myself.

http://www.castrol.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/products/cars/classic-oils/classic-engine-oils.html

Don't know if they are also available in the US.

 

Synthetics are interesting. We discussed ester synthetics earlier in this thread. Ultimately you can build the best lubricant using synthetic base oils, but there are some drawbacks, the #1 drawback being the cost. In a competitive market using synthetic stocks results in an increased price, which has an effect on sales. But I'm a believer in using premium products, and synthetics can offer some great advantages, which can offset the increased price. In particular, synthetics offer big advantages in extreme temperature conditions, either hot or cold. They resist oxidation better, they resist thermal stress under extreme heat conditions better, and they resist thickening under extreme cold temps better. However, we also have additives that can make a good quality mineral base oil perform very well too, but when it comes to extreme conditions synthetics are definitely better. Like I said, they resist oxidation better. Oxidation is the main limiting factor for the service life of lubricants. They do get dirty, but we have filters to remove most of the dirt. And they can get contaminated with things like fuel dilution or coolant contamination, and then it doesn't matter if they are synthetic or not, they need to be changed. But once the oil becomes oxidized it must be drained out and replaced. Nitration can also occur under some conditions, but for an engine in good condition nitration shouldn't be the limiting factor. Oxidation of the oil causes the oil to darken in color, the viscosity increases as long chain compounds develop, and those compounds are polar (they are attracted to the metal surfaces) and can be acidic and corrosive. At best they plate out on the interior surfaces as Varnish or Lacquer. Allowed to get worse they will build into sludge. The acids developed will attack the soft metals in the bearings. But as we see in the pdf I posted earlier, those acidic compounds are critical in cam lobe wear as well. In any case, since synthetics resist oxidation better they offer opportunity to extend service intervals, which can help to offset the higher price.

But there are other drawback to synthetics, and in particular for PAO synthetics, and to a lesser degree Group III highly refined mineral oils, both of which make up the vast majority of synthetic motor oils, they have poor solvency characteristics. In fact for PAO's the solvency is so poor they need to use some ester as a carrier for the additives, because PAO won't solubilize the additives. Group III's do better, Group II's do even better, and Group I's even better yet. So mineral oils have some good characteristics too. So you can actually get some really great performance from synthetic/mineral blends, capitalizing on the best characteristics of both. The main thing to keep in mind is that it is the complete package that is what is really important, not any 1 particular component. Motor oils are approximately 75% base oil and 25% additives. Those percentages are not exact, and will vary by product, but that's pretty close. The point is, base oil alone, no matter whether synthetic or mineral, is not sufficient to protect an engine, additives are required for a fully formulated engine oil. Additives come in basically 2 main types, some add new properties to the lubricant that are not contained in the base oil, or to enhance natural properties in the base oil; other additives act to protect and preserve the characteristics that are in the base oil. We get a tremendous amount of performance from additives, don't kid yourself about that. So some of the performance available from synthetic base oil can be made up for in mineral oils using specialized additives. Ultimately, synthetics are best, and for extreme conditions, i.e. aviation lubricants, or polar exploration vehicles, synthetics are the only way to go. But for less than extreme conditions, we can build very, very good products using synthetic/mineral blends, taking advantage of the natural characteristics of both using specialized additives designed specifically for those particular base oils. Where lube companies have made mistakes in the past is in not recognizing the different base oil types really require specific additives, and thinking they can interchange base oils using the same additive packages, and they end up getting less than optimal performance.

 

B4U thx for your thoughts and comments on this issue of all sorts of oil, I'm no lubrication engineer but all my years of automotive involvement I have had a hunger for knowledge on lubricating oil.
Consequently, I have read many, many articles and "white papers" on the subject. I tend to pay a lot more attention to the stuff from people who are educated in the field of lubrication (such as you) than I do to the old guy (like me) who's been at this game for 60 years and what he used back in the 50s is good enough today. There's been a lot of changes in the field of lubrication and as you know the oils of today are way superior to those from "back inna day".
I could bore everyone to tears with a littany of anecdotal incidents in which synthetic oils in general, and Amsoil specifically, have solved problems. But in the field of use in hipo engines in general and flat tappet problems in particular that I'm lacking hands on, first person experience.
Hence, having had a very positive experience for over 40 years with Amsoil syntheticsa living up to their stated features and benefits in everyday use, I'm tending to trust them on hipo stuff now that I've gotten back into hipo up to my ears