I am about to pull my car out of storage and will be changing the oil. What are you guys using for oil and are you using a zinc additive? I have searched this site and while there is a huge amount of discussion on the subject, it is very dated. Best oil in 2017??? Thanks,
Normal modern oil works fine for me, no additive. You'll get all kinds of wild opinions, stories, recommendations, etc. Good luck sorting through it all.
Same here. A lot depends on what you're running for a engine and your spring pressures. Zinc is a cushioning agent and higher spring pressures require more cushion. For example ZDDP was not a real issue and most oil didn't have the additive until the advent of the valve in head V8.
61tudor, no need for "ZDDP again". Have you utilized the HAMB Search Function on this topic? The ZDDP issue has been a topic for discussion numerous times previously. Gary
I too use modern oil and it's just fine. 15W/40 on everything old. If you have to have high zinc to feel good, Lucas carries a hotrod and classic car motor oil that is high zinc.
Yes, I have! Most threads are too old to be relevant since the oil companies can change their formulas at will. What was gospel 3 years ago is now suspect. Since I posted this I have found that Mobil 1 still shows it in their formula as of March this year. I am running a 1970 351 Cleveland 4 barrel. Stock valve springs on a SVO cam. Shell does not seem to make this info available and cannot find a way to contact them. Their website sends me in circles. Joe Gibbs has oil but it is not cheap, Amsoil as well.
Flat tappet cam? I would use it. Every oil change gets a bottle of Lucas, as I trust their products, in my 56 Y-block. I also use an ounce of additive with the fuel in every tank. To me it's prevention since I only change oil once a year. Oils are all good today; some here also use "hot rod" oils which I choose not to. Good luck.
I haven't had a cam/lifter failure in 12 years, I never use fancy oil or additives. But I did go to roller lifters in a couple of my big blocks. I never really noticed any change in cam/lifter life because of changes in oil formulation. But then, I'm not a superstitious person, for the most part. If it has less than .550" lift, you'll probably be fine with normal oil.
Do a web search for MSDS information. On their material data safety sheets they have to list the ingredients, it is law. They do not have to list proprietary information like PPM but they have to list the ingredients. if it makes you happy and this is a spam list of everyone's favorite oil I run Castrol no problems.
This book was a fantastic reference for me. It had a lot of great information about modern oil and fuel for your antique car. An interesting note; My engine builder had been recommending Shell Rotella for the Zinc properties. At some point they must have changed the oil formula and it no longer indicates that it contains Zinc, so my thoughts are to use a Zinc additive anyway. It's cheap insurance for your engine. Good luck with decision. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I am a Field Engineer for a lubricants company, dealing with Commercial lubricants, I am also a Certified Lubrication Specialist with the STLE and a certified Machinery Lubrication Technician II with the ICML. Which is a lot of BS, but it does mean I'm not just another guy on the net with an opinion based on anecdotes. I do have access to research papers and studies, and I've posted information in past threads, including parts of research papers, and also measured zinc levels from different oils that were acquired via used oil analysis. With all that said, my opinions are not too far from what Squirrel has posted above. The biggest concern is with flat tappet camshafts and lifters, but unless you're running a very high lift cam with aggressive lobes (steep ramps) and higher spring pressures this will probably never affect you. The stories of failed cam shafts has to be taken with a grain of salt, there are lot's of reason's cams will fail, not all of them are the fault of low ZDDP in the oil; though that is what usually gets the blame, as it takes responsibility off the cam grinder or the lifter manufacturer who didn't properly harden his parts, or the installer who didn't properly break the cam in, which is something that has always been an issue long before zinc levels were reduced in modern oils. But there are those who do have aggressive aftermarket cams and high pressure springs, or people just want extra assurance, like me. I use a heavy duty diesel engine oil with typical zinc level of >1200 ppm. Sholoff posted some brands a couple of posts up, any of those are good oils. The new CK-4 specification for HDEO's raises the performance level up even higher, but beware of oils that list both API CK-4 & SN service classification, as they now are required to meet the lower zinc levels of the SM category. Stick with an oil that is CK-4 only and you'll be just fine. I'm NOT a fan of aftermarket oil additives, like ZDDP in a can, as they can (and probably will) upset the balance of the chemistry of the additive package, which includes other surface acting chemicals besides ZDDP, and just mixing the unknown chemicals together with no way to know how they will react is looney, no real chemist worth his diploma would approve.
I got a real question and not just one of my looney ones to make people think a little bit. Zinc is no doubt not the only additive that can be used to cushion moving parts. [insert different word if cushion isn't correct enough] I am going to guess that it is the cheapest additive or one of the cheaper additives. in your travels have you heard of anyone working with other additives that would replace ZDDP and actually work? is anyone considering that in their off the shelf oil?
You'll hear different opinions, but fact is Zinc's gone from modern lubricants and Zinc additive is cheap insurance on flat tappet motors!!
Want a chuckle? The local Dollar General Store recently got into trouble for selling oil that is formulated for 1980 and earlier motors (says it right on the can). According to whomever is more smarter than I am it the Zinc content was too high for modern motors and was gumming something up. When I saw it on the news I went down to the local store and looked at it, there was no brand the jugs just Motor Oil and sure enough it said approved for 1980 and older motors, product of Mexico. They wanted it removed from the shelves but the store had no liability because it said on the can that it was not for late model motors.
Also, just to clarify about ZDDP, it is, as I posted above, a surface acting chemical. It has a polar head (seeks to attach itself to metal surfaces) and an oil soluble tail. It reacts chemically with the metal surface due to the heat of operation to form a glass like layer (what we geeks call a "tribo film") on the rubbing surfaces of the engine, to provide a self sacrificing layer. When the parts rub together this layer will rub off, preventing metal to metal contact. As the layer is rubbed off, additional ZDDP in the oil will plate out on the surfaces to replace it. The rate at which the film rubs off is related to the severity of the load (aggressivenes of cam and pressure of the valve springs). A mild or medium severity cam and low to medium pressure springs will remove the film at a lower rate than an aggressive cam with high spring pressures. Now this is important. The tribo film will only get so thick, no matter how much ZDDP is in the oil. Putting more ZDDP in the oil does will not provide a thicker film. Let that sink in for a moment. More3 ZDDP does not equal a thicker tribo film. What it means is the oil can protect the surfaces longer than an oil with lower levels of ZDDP. In theory, if you only put a few hundred miles between oil changes, even when using a modern SN gas engine oil with low levels of ZDDP, you will probably never deplete the ZDDP out of the oil and never have a wear problem. Of course, that depends on the aggressiveness of your cam and the pressure of the valve springs, and how hard you drive it. One last point, not all ZDDP compounds are created equal. There are different companies producing different brands of additives, and even each company has different ZDDP compounds. They don't all have the same effectiveness, or the same rates of depletion. Just because Brand X says it has xx amount of zinc in the oil, that doesn't mean it will protect better than Brand Y with x amount of zinc. That is simplistic and a misunderstanding of lubrication additive chemistry.
Seeing as you're looking for opinion, here's mine, I use 15/40 diesel oil (insert your own brand here), in everything I own including a 20 year old 327 in my 36. It's formulated for severe duty in, on the road, high mileage between changes diesel trucks, good enough for them, good enough for me.
Well, this simply is not accurate. Zinc is not "gone" from modern lubricants, the level is reduced, but not gone. And as I explained above, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, or that mixing in your can of ZDDP additive is a good thing. You're passing bogus advice on something you know nothing about. This is an issue that is coming up more and more. The problem with the older oils is the higher zinc levels can "poison" the catalytic converter on cars that have them, or at least that's the theory (the real concern should be the amount of oil being consumed in the combustion chamber, not the amount of zinc in the oil). There is a movement across the country to force these oils off the shelves, and in fact CA has already passed a law making them illegal, unless they are marked as being for racing use or off road use. Expect to see this happen across the country.
Yeah, it's being done already. For instance we see higher levels of Boron being used in many engine oils, as well as Moly, and even some use of Titanium as an additive. All are intended to prevent wear. Zinc has done a great job at low cost for many years, every replacement costs more. And ZDDP also serves as an anti-oxidant to prevent aging of the oil, so it serves 2 purposes, not just anti-wear. It really is a work horse in the lubes industry.
in fact CA has already passed a law making them illegal, unless they are marked as being for racing use or off road use. Expect to see this happen across the country. Very true... tried to order a case of Valvoline racing oil from Summit in Reno to ship to me in Kalifornia. No Go!... Denied....Get lost and "E" all the above
1.80- 2.50. They charge less for straight weight 30 then for 20W40. The issue is not an issue at my house (and shouldn't be at yours given your proximity to the border). I got family on the Isthmus. What about synthetics, they claim to go long way. is there a viable synthetic for the guys who really have a problem with flattening cam shafts? wait a minute Boron? The same stuff that they used to make soap out of? [think 20 mule team borax]
I had the opportunity to attend a grease and oil seminar where I worked several years ago. It was extremely interesting to me. Of course I asked a lot of questions concerning motor oils especially their take on zincs and how it affects older motors. This information was very close to what Blues4U has said. . This has joggled my memory some what .I remember that I left with the opinion that just to be safe I would use Brad Penn. Bill
So, perhaps a guy ought to get an oil analysis done occasionally, to see how the zinc level is holding up?
Synthetics definitely offer some advantages over mineral, though for wear prevention the benefits are probably more indirect as a result of better flow characteristics and better pumpability, the oil can't protect much if it's sitting in the oil pan. If you can get it out to the high stress points better you will prevent wear better, right? I think this is mostly an issue at startup, or in extreme temperature operation. Synthetics also resist degradation better, the live longer under more extreme conditions. Haha! Yep, same stuff. Well, not exactly the same stuff. I don't want anyone pouring some of that powder out of a box of Borax into their engine thinking it's gonna help! LOL! Chemists make a good living developing specialized compounds using the stuff for that purpose. I'm not an advocate of bathtub blending lubricants.
LOL I am seeking out retirement property in death valley now. Funny I have never considered borax(boron) for anything but a cleanser. of course chemistry is not my strong suit.
Well, there's a problem with that. What used oil analysis looks for is the element Zinc, not the compound ZDDP. As I described, the fresh ZDDP plates out on the surfaces to form a film, it is chemically activated, and its changed in form. When it is worn off due to rubbing action of the parts, it ends up back in the oil, but it is not available to be re-activated again. It's done it's job and now it's used up, but it still exists in the oil. And when you analyze the oil via spectroscopy that used ZDDP is still going to show as the element Zinc. So you cannot use oil analysis to measure zinc depletion, it doesn't work like that. Anyone telling you otherwise doesn't understand used oil analysis properly. (I'm also a certified Oil Monitoring Analyst and a certified Machinery Lubrication Analyst, more titles, blah, blah blah...)
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