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Technical ***April 2017 Banger Meet - No Fooling!***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Mar 31, 2017.

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  1. With the very limited market for these types of engines, and the decline of the number of Hot Rodders, it makes little sense to tool up and make parts. I know of many sets of patterns that could be used but with the lack of Quality casting houses and quite frankly the obsolete technology, it just doesn't make any sense to produce.
    Do not take this as doom and gloom, there are a few folks who do build/produce Very Good heads and components.
    As with any of this information, you can find exceptions.
    Personally, I would like to use the external patterns to produce the casting as a blank without any internals. This would allow for making the ports/chambers and valves more modern. I have a couple projects to finish first but think it may be easier to make from billet chunk and finish the outside to look more original.
    Enjoy the weekend, it looks to be a nice one coming up, J
     
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  2. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,241

    RussTee
    Member

    I have a great interest in double overhead cam heads and there history I realise that there is now a shortage of foundaries interested in producing this type of product or should I say having an interest in producing this type of product which now days would probably never be a profit makeing venture. I am also surprised that with all the clever guys we have here that no one has taken on the aultimate challenge of designing and building ahead useing modern technology and design practises I would have thought that with CNC machinery and scanning technology one of our bright young guns would have taken on the challenge. Others including myself have adapted the likes of a chev four head but hey those heads where made in 1929 eighty eight years ago it would be nice to see a young gun take up this challenge and design a modern style head for our old motors be it with a modern girdle bottom end . Now for those who say it would not be traditional I say what is more traditional than taking modern tech and using it to hot up an older motor to give more power and efficiency. Are we becomeing a group who Restore old hotrod motors and cars just like the restorersof other vintage cars. Hehe coments please or am I stiring the hornets nest?
     
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  3. Russ,
    It is funny, or not, I am working on modeling up a new flathead chamber as you are posting.
    I have just done the ruff toolpaths and have the test block in the mill.
    I too have much interest in a DOHC, just as a tease, here is one I have in the works.
    I cannot tell you how many hours have been spent in this design, and of course I will not show all of it.
    J
    assm iso 112416.JPG
     
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  4. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    The computer guys hear have let me down. There is no problem finding good foundries here. But my health problems have slowed things to a crawl.
    The parts are scanned but the guy doing the annotating blew up. Then the 3-D printer guy started a new company and now is in the middle of a divorce ........ and so and so. I am hoping this Summer we can get to patterns and casting.

    Remember our 5-main is strictly an OHC block no provision for in-block cam, tappets or valves. As such it's a tighter stronger base........ This isn't a money maker. Don't plan to market any of this. The original block I have was just poorly machined and was too screwed to use in a car. I admit I've been more concerned about staying alive rather than getting this project further on track.
     
  5. Liberty Garage
    Joined: Oct 14, 2008
    Posts: 140

    Liberty Garage
    Member

    Its been done I have a DOHC engine in my lakester. The head pattern was made by a pattern maker friend for Bob McKinney. The 5 main girdle was designed by Kong Jackson who knows how long ago and are still available. 280 HP at 5500 RPM. 201.8 MPH at Bonneville. We are fortunate to have a few people in the hobby like Serr, Price and Yapp that are trying to fill a need for us nuts. Nobody is getting rich off these endeavors.
     
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  6. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Our rules require parts before 1932...... You can make them new but the same material and design. No B blocks or girdles.......
     
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  7. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,241

    RussTee
    Member

    John exactly what I had in mind.
    Liberty garage yes agreed but nothing current.
    Bluto you of all should know rules are made to be broken.
    I am pleasently surprised I was not deleted imediately I think the discussion is valid Bluto of course is right but lets move forward and not let history and restorers cloud the issue the motor (Hal) that Bluto is working on is a very important project and few other could or would attempt it. Yes there are a few specialist racing motors produced and are picking up records well done but as stated the Kong girdle was designed when? Serr Price and Yapp do provide a valuable service which I amongst others use and value.
    What I talk about here is new thinking taken up and premoted by the young bloods. We are by our own admission older graybeards. Would it not be a great thing if one of the young go getters with a proven record of respecting the old and traditions took up the challenge the likes of Bobby Green with his contacts in Japan ( what non American but builders of great modern motors ) took up the challenge, put their modern thinking onto the components which John has started working on.
    As for the rules yes they are what they are but do you not think that if the youngsters built a motor run it even in an open class and ran it well it would be a challenge to other young ones and premote the sport. So often now days we see the word cant or rules lets not stiffle inovation and free thinking lets build on the wonderful past we enjoyed when week by week the inovators stepped up produced inovative new products such as fuel injection and streamlineing great stuff our books such as the rodders journal are full of it but are they in danger of becoming history books .
    This is the banger site dedicated to the premotion of banger type motors lets embrace further developement of these motors . I am not talking about modern motors but our motors Ts As Bs Chev and Dodge4s a challenge to the young and maybe not so stodgy hehe are we stodgy well maybe a little bit have I just bitten into a red hot pepper?
     
  8. A few years back I borrowed a set of "original" wooden manifold patterns and went from shop to shop, patterns in hand and most said no, a couple bid around $ 500 and A well known So Ca shop ran a sample and billed me $ 275. A misunderstanding on my part. If I was dealing in 5 to 10,000 quanities I could afford the later type of patterns as most of these foundries are now automated. I have been able to watch a modern shop operate! I called a local pattern maker who was building some patterns for a head. He took them to a small shop he was using and they cast 10 at a reasonable price.
    As to new expensive components, when you bring this up with newbies I believe you discourage them, too much too soon. That is kinda why I went back to see what I could get out of a reasonably modified model A flathead. I have found just as much excitement as a guy I know that has supposedly $ 20,000 invested in his 4 barrel engine.
     
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  9. Jim, if I remember correctly, there were a couple aftermarket T engines that had 5 main bearings... couldn't someone model their design after one of those and still fit within your rules? Then again, going the Dodge Fast Four route would solve all that :D
     
  10. You know guys..it ever was thus! The first order of business plan is to find a need and fill it. But, that need has to have enough of a market to make it worthwhile. I've written a lot of posts about Art Sparks. I came into possession of a recorded narrative that he made in the early 70's and sent to Larry Sullivan, a noted motor journalist of the time. I found that a lot I thought I knew, was wrong. For example I noted a lot of erroneous information and omissions in Eugene Banning's book "Speedway: A Half Century of Racing with Art Sparks". Sparks and Paul Weirick had purchased a Miller-Schofield DOHC cylinder head from Schofield of America. Schofield had purchased ALL the assets Harry Miller's operations in February of 1929, including the patterns for the DOHC and OHV. Mark Dees cover all of that in his book; and the Sparks narrative verified it. Banning got some of it. Sparks, in his narrative declared the Schofield DOHC "No Good"... Then Harlan Fengler with Crane Gartz backing (CRAGAR) bought the patterns out of the Schofield bankruptcy and began to produce both the DOHC and OHV. CRAGAR could sell the OHV but the DOHC languished. The DOHC was declared "Late to the Market". So wrote Mark Dess and again verified by Sparks. George Wight the owner of Bell Auto Parts, when HE got hold of the CRAGAR patterns could hold inventories of the DOHC (though not many as I understand). This because cylinder heads were not the WHOLE business of Bell Auto Parts. The market for DOHC for race car engines in the 20's and 30's was filled with builders. "Bottom Line" as some of you have already alluded to: Ya gotta have a market which to sell!" Even "Back in the Day". "It ever was Thus"!
     
  11. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    I have a Bell Auto Parts catalog somewhere here in my stuff. I'll go looking. It came with my CRAGAR Jr DOHC. This head was for International 4 midget engines. If I find it I'll scan it and post the scans here.
    Showed it to Mark. He didn't know what it was....... Very OFFY-like

    People generally think my 5-main is HAL but it has a Model A looking rear main.
    If the block and crank are designed properly you don't need 5 mains. Some of the 4 cylinder stuff I build was only 2 mains and runs higher RPM than any Ford.

    RT
    I made the choice to run with a group that has rules...... Rules cost money but they ARE fun to BEAT-UP a bit.

    Bill
    While I'm feeling poorly I have been thinking about new diff gears and close ratio trans sets. One thing about being here is that I can get these things done by others at a very fair price. So I do slow down but the projects do continue....

    Every time I go into our workshop I see Mark's Winfield sign hanging over my workbench.



     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  12. Happy Sunday!

    Local Craigslist score. Looks T, but something just ain't right?

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  13. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    I have this problem too. The mains are bore too big and the stud holes will crack.
     
  14. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 32,368

    The37Kid
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Note to self, start reading Craig's List. Bob
     
  15. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 257

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Did the seller know what it was?
     
  16. Yes, it came from Jerry Sherman's son. Jerry built speed parts for T's out of socal in the 60's and 70's. It is a pretty cool bit of socal history.
     
  17. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 32,368

    The37Kid
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Jerry Sherman, there is a name from the old "Hot Line" days in the 1970's. We thought things were really great with a monthly printed newsletter. Bob
     
  18. That should be one Hell of a Mod "T" motor with individual ports like that. Did you get the manifold to match?
    J
     
  19. studebakerjoe
    Joined: Jul 7, 2015
    Posts: 1,175

    studebakerjoe
    Member

    Did you get one of these side plates with it?
     

    Attached Files:

  20. The pile so far...only SoCal's finest. The carb is a perfect match.

    [​IMG]




    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  21. Then there is this pile...8:1 so not over the top. Found a guy who makes solid copper head gaskets.

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  22. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 32,368

    The37Kid
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Even if it never runs it will look great bolted together. Bob
     
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  23. Wow! "Fur Biscuit" lives!! Not having heard or seen "Hide nor Hair' for a long, long time, I thought maybe you were shot by a jealous husband.
     

  24. Been on the trail of work. This pile came my way and I couldn't say no. Had the carb for a while.

    How have you been?

    Will have to get caught up on the monthly banger meet stuff.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  25. WELL!...Given too many seasons gone by, I'm doing as well as can be expected.. I'm continuing to be obsessed with this bloody race car (to the detriment of many more constructive endeavors)..I've FINALLY been able to put an engine together that performs as I had originally envisioned. At one track, solely from the increased performance of the engine; I found that I knocked near 10 seconds off my previous best lap time. We're going to Buttonwillow in early May (several weeks from now); but only to "Test and Tune" (although others will be racing)..All goes well we'll race at Sonoma this 1st of June. Then we'll go to Monterey in August. But, alas.."We're All Here; Because We're Not All There!"
     
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  26. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,391

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    Found a guy who makes solid copper head gaskets.

    if not "O" ring , maybe a problem .
    the block on our drag bike was "O" ringed & never lost a gasket . they are reusable in you reheat & squelched .
     
  27. Noted.
     
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  28. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    I have never had any real luck with "Solid" head gaskets O-ringed or not. Especially blocks were cylinders are cast close together. They just don't hold compression effectively. Lucky we found a company close that laser cuts diesel material with copper and/or stainless rings swigged into them. They also print sealant on them.

    http://www.tedelpol.pl/?lang=eng

    Good guys and their prices are very fair.
     
  29. Andrew Mccann
    Joined: Aug 2, 2016
    Posts: 257

    Andrew Mccann
    Member
    from Bristol UK

    Interesting and useful link. I have bored my Chevy from standard 3.687 to 3.876 (!) and was concerned about what to do with the head gasket, leaving it standard or having one made.
    I really don't know what the effects may be with having it overhang the cylinder can't be good. I may enquire.
     

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