Hot Rods Old Wives Tale, Water Pump Lubrication

On another web site I responded to a BS post where it was stated one of the functions of anti-freeze was to provide lubrication to water pumps. Nothing is further then the truth. Water pumps are sealed units with no way for coolant to interface with the pumps bearing surfaces.
Over the years we've all seen this anti-freeze water pump lubrication myth. Marketers of cooling system products continue to claim they provide water pump lubrication. Their claims have been repeated for so long it has become Gospel in many peoples minds.
In reality water pumps do not require any additional type of lubrication other then the assembly lubrication. In fact if the coolant does contact the bearings the pumps failed.
Should anyone require additional information go to www.articles.chicagotribune.com

Gary

 

Maybe so in modern vehicles, but older pumps in some cases did require lubing. My 1955 IH farm tractor has a nipple to grease the bearings in the water pump. The IH manual calls for a special type of water pump grease. Every time I grease the tractor, I shoot a few squirts of regular grease in the water pump, don't figure it will hurt a thing.

 

BamaMav, I suggest you reread my post. Its about the BS information about anti-freeze providing water pump lubrication not an IH pump with a lubrication nipple. There still is no interface with your IH bearings and the coolant.

 

The seals need something.
The bearings have a life span, the seals need to stay intact to make sure the bearings reach the end of it.
Once the seal is worn, the bearings and pump are not far behind. The weep holes are there to alert you that the hidden seal has failed.

 

model A water pump shaft, does rub on head.

 

31 vicky are you saying that water pump seals require lubrication from the engine coolant? Please explain to us how the coolant enters the sealed bearing compartment. Doesn't the pump fail when that happens? I've replaced a bunch of water pumps for anti-freeze leaking from the weep hole. Do you disagree with the Chicago tribune article? What do you mean by your post the seal needs something? Is this something other then whats done during the manufacturing process? Please explain.
The purpose of my post was to share information. I'm getting tired of those who post to argue.

 

Really?
I thought I was pretty clear, but I know that you like to argue so what the hell.... I'll type slower.

First, the bearings do not need coolant for lubrication, the bearing do not come in contact with coolant until a internal shaft seal fails. When the seal fails, by design the coolant escapes thru the weep holes. Coolant at the weep holes is the evidence that the seal has failed. Once the seal has failed the bearings are doomed. Personally I've seen more seals failed evident at weep holes than I have bearing fail without any evidence at the weep holes. I'll make the assumption that this observation is universal as well. Indicating that generally the bearing can out last the seal.

Every type of seal on a rotating shaft needs some sort lubricant, in some instances the seal rotates around a stationary shaft or the the shaft rotates within the seal. That seal needs to have lubricant on the "wide" side of the seal. If it doesn't have that lubricant ot rides dry or rides in plain water the seals will deteriorate quickly or score the shaft. Either one will cause a leak and in the case of the water pumps, bearing destruction is eminent shortly. If the weep hole were not there the bearing cavity would be pressurized by the coolant system and destroy the bearings MUCH faster.

Secondly, in my original post, I didn't argue with the information you shared. Because it's correct. The bearing do not interact with the coolant and the bearings do not need any type or lubricant provided thru the slippery additives in coolant. However, the seals do need some type of lube. They aren't going to get it from anyplace else.

Thirdly, have you ever wondered why marine applications utilize an entirely different type of water pump? Are you aware there is a water seal, and an oil seal in a marine pump? That because the back side of the water seal has oil in it.

Fourthly- try to reserve yourself to one edit

 

It's the seal that gets lubricated by the coolant. Not the bearings.

 

I know a couple of old retired forklift mechanics who have both told me (since I own a forklift) to put water soluble oil in the radiator for longer water pump seal life.
So I do when I service the cooling system.

 

depends on the pump, not new stuff real old stuff,...... that has a brass bush for the bearing and an outer rope seal , they leak , supposed to , so a little soluable oil in the water may not be a bad thing? not much use with mechanical seal type pump seals.

 

don't they use some type of ceramic seal these days?

 

Some larger, older, and probably OT, applications used split rings of graphite impregnated "rope" externally as shaft packing seals. Tighten the packing nut to adjust the number of drips required to keep the packing seal from burning up, IIRC 6-10 per min was a common specification.

Ed

 

I was a fleet mechanic on police vehicles in the 80s and we used water pump lubricant additive. No, lie. It worked.

 

Does anyone else see the irony here?

 

Can only buy it at one store here in DFW that I know of. I'll buy some when I put coolant in my 54. A friend said what can it hurt and maybe it helps.

 

I worked on electric household water pumps where they were drained and left empty for years, and were re-connected and filled up, bled and started up. Sometimes the lip of the seal would have dried out and frozen onto the shaft and tore off on start-up. They relied on a tiny amount of the pumped material to wick under the lip to keep it lubricated.

 

rule of the day......always lubricate.
although............without a little friction, none of us would be here.

 

OK, here's the scoop...
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/190

Water pumps are often likened to the heart of the cooling system. When the pump fails, the results are not pleasant. Most water pump failure can be prevented with a few simple measures.

Water pumps come in a vast variety of shapes and sizes but they all share similar design. There is an impeller driven by a shaft that is supported by bearings. These bearings are protected by grease seals. On newer vehicles, there is also a very complex seal that seals the shaft from the engine coolant.



Modern water pump seals are not like most automotive seals. They no longer use rubber or even ceramic. Most use rings, made of silicon and other hard materials and pushed together by a spring. The primary ring is attached to the seal body and is stationary. The mating ring is pressed onto the driveshaft and rotates.



This type seal depends on proper coolant for lubrication. Engine coolant comes in a vast array of mixtures. While most is ethylene glycol base, the corrosion protection is vastly different. Older vehicles used silicates to prevent corrosion. Newer vehicles rely on phosphates or organic acid. The wrong coolant type will not properly lubricate the water pump seal.

Water pump seals also become damaged in other ways. Coolant depletes over time and turns acidic. If it is not properly replaced, the coolant attacks the metal in the system. Cooling systems today are largely aluminum and acidic coolant forms aluminum oxide, by galvanic action.

Galvanic action occurs when metals are exposed to acidic liquids. Basically the cooling system becomes a battery and metal is eaten away. This can be measured by placing the positive lead of a volt meter in the coolant and touching the negative lead to ground. Galvanic action is different from electrolysis and transient current flow, but can be just as damaging.

Aluminum oxide is an abrasive and can quickly damage water pump seals as well as radiators, heater cores and even engines. The impeller on this water pump was eaten away by galvanic action and caused a severe engine overheat problem.



When engines overheat the water pump seal may also be damage. Adding cool water to a hot system or running the engine without coolant can cause the water pump seal to crack.



Detecting a leaking water pump is not always easy and many good water pumps are needlessly replaced. A slight dampness or stain at the water pump weep port is NOT necessarily a sign of a bad water pump. Dripping water from the weep port means the internal seal has failed.

On vehicles with timing belts, the water pump is normally under the timing cover. Because of the difficulty in replacing such a pump, it is wise to replace it when the timing belt is replaced. Failure of the pump after belt replacement usually means re-doing the timing belt and can cause the belt to break.



While it is unusual, it is also possible to mis-route a serpentine belt on certain vehicles. Such a mistake can cause the water pump to rotate backwards and overheat the engine. Best is to always refer to the routing diagram when replacing a serpentine belt.



Properly servicing the cooling system, on a regular basis, is the best protection against water pump and many other cooling system problems. Coolant should be checked every year and replaced when the pH falls to 7.0 or if the specific gravity falls.

Let AGCO check your cooling system and keep its heart beating healthy.

 

Maybe it's not just for the bearings but the seals also, since it specifys a water souble grease?

 

Great thread.

 

A bit better than "what color should I paint it"

 

Thanks Montana!

 

Not adding any engineering data to the argument, but....the 324 in my 55 Olds would always squeak if I just ran regular anti-freeze in it. An old timer then told me to put waterpump lube in it. Stopped the squeal. I even changed the water pump once or twice on it, and again, noisy until I put the lube in it. Same when doing an antifreeze change for maintenance. Drove the car 160 K miles over a 20 year stretch. So it wasn't just a one time deal.

 

Ok so now there must be at least 2 different realities. It's been proven right here.

In One of these realities incorrect facts are built upon the top of the drifting sands of not understanding. This is also referred to as ignorance with in the circles of the other reality. As a result these pseudo facts amount to nothing more than bullshit, perhaps pure horseshit in their more non diluted forms. Thankfully there is very successful and easily obtainable cure for ignorance. It doesn't happen over night though. Arrogance , defensiveness, insecurities and argumentative behavior are a bit harder to correct.


The Chicago tribune link doesn't work, at least it's not connected to any particular information. I'd also love to see the forum pages that were first mentioned.

 

hmmm. Maybe - and I surely don't know, but maybe its the thinking that with there being a zerk, and a feller with an over-zealous arm pumping on the grease gun, the idea is that all that excess grease getting into the rad and so on - might be better if its water soluble so it doesn't just flop around in a big lump until it finds a place to sit and clog up the works.

That wouldn't be a good thing.