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Technical electric or mechanical?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by eddie rockitnyc, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    hey F-1, thanks for your insight.
    to clarify, it's a GM Crate motor, (all their specs)in a 49' plymouth business coupe(not sure how FORD got mentioned)
    new alum radiator.
    as for your check list;
    air seems to be moving through engine compartment. i even louvered inner fender wells.
    (i could use a baffle in the grill to direct more air though)
    cooling system clean,clear.
    no rust in block.
    i could have the timing checked again. thanks for reminding me.
    next, i'll check serpentine belt direction.( It's my understanding, that the hotter water should be pushed from the intake manifold to the top of the radiator.).
    so iv'e got some fact finding to do. thanks again for the help. E.
     
  2. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    oh , one more thing, HEADERS. they're jammed in the tiny engine compartment and i'm convinced they're adding to the problem. have purchased iron manifolds that create more space between motor and fenders.
    thanks again for all the replies.
     
    19ChevyFleetline50 likes this.
  3. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 15,200

    Budget36
    Member

    You mentioned Serp setup, that should be a reverse rotation water pump, say from a '90 Fbody, or similar.

    Edit:...the water is still pushed through the block and up to the T-stat...when Tstat opens, the water flows into the top of the a]radiator...otherwise, they'd move the sensing part of the Stat to the top....least that's how I see it.
     
    eddie rockitnyc likes this.
  4. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 9,166

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    What size is the new Alum radiator? Cross flow? Hite, width of core and tube size, how many rows..
     
  5. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    so in the correct configuration, the pump should spin clockwise(?) as i look fit rom the front of the car? thanks.
     
  6. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    hey Seb,rad is 18"wide X 23"high X 3" thick at the tanks .they're are 2, 1" tubes inside. i think it's 2 rows.
     
  7. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,256

    Gman0046
    Member

    Guy's why do you keep mentioning the fan and shroud? The car runs hot at highway speed when you can run all day long without a fan on a properly designed system. No big deal with an aluminum radiator, I've seen Griffins that wouldn't do the job. Besides copper/brass radiators have a better cooling coefficient.

    Gary
     
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  8. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 15,200

    Budget36
    Member


    I don't recall, and my daughter is at work, so I can't look at her car...but thing is, what water pump did you use?

    I/e if you used one for a 68 Impala, it would be wrong.

    Edit:...the rotation would be that way (CW facing engine) regardless of what pump you used, but...the impellers in the pump wold not be set up to operate the water flow in the correct way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  9. HOTRODPRIMER
    Joined: Jan 3, 2003
    Posts: 64,593

    HOTRODPRIMER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What size is the water pump pulley & the crank pulley? HRP
     
  10. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    yet to find pump specs. (edit: thanks for checking your belt direction .)
     
  11. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,357

    Hnstray
    Member
    from Quincy, IL

    Good catch on the avatar being a Mopar. :oops:

    However, the comment about "aircraft outrunning their own bullets.........."
    wouldn't the bullet speed be the muzzle velocity PLUS the aircraft's speed when gun was fired???
     
  12. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    not sure of those diameters yet. i think pump pulley is 7.5" in dia. thanks.
     
  13. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 15,200

    Budget36
    Member

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  14. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 15,200

    Budget36
    Member

    That's a physics thing, I think say muzzle velocity is 4000fps...it is still 4000fps if moving or stationary.
     
  15. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    cool, the type of pump is determined by a smooth or grooved pulley.(i'm almost sure it is grooved.) i'll check when i get home. cheers.
     
  16. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,357

    Hnstray
    Member
    from Quincy, IL

    Of course it's Physics. I am not saying muzzle velocity changes. I am saying the gun itself is already traveling the speed of the aircraft when the gun is fired. So, if the aircraft/gun is traveling 600 mph and the bullet emerges from the 600 mph barrel at 4000 feet per second, the bullet itself is traveling much faster than the airplane and the airplane cannot 'catch up' with the bullet. At least not until the bullet velocity decreases, but by then the bullet trajectory will likely be well below the aircraft's path.

    The bullet speed is 'relative'. It is relative to the aircraft/gun (your # 4000 FPS), it is relative to the ground below (aircraft ground speed plus muzzle velocity) and it is relative to airspeed (aircraft airspeed plus muzzle velocity).

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  17. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 15,200

    Budget36
    Member


    Don't think the pulley matters, it's the fins in the pump, see, you could put a pulley from a '90 water pump, onto the pump of a '71, but if you used the '71 pump in the '90 serp setup, even though it's rotating the same way the '90 pump would, it would be rotating and not pumping water, due to the fins being oriented the opposite way.

    Do you recall what pump you used?

    And I think you mentioned it was a GM crate motor, do you recall the application?...Cause I think those crate motors come with a pump on them??
     
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  18. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,256

    Gman0046
    Member

    The .50 calibre analogy of shooting down its own aircraft is another BS story. The .50 muzzle velocity is 4000 ft/sec. Many USAF jet fighters are equipped with 20 MM gatling guns with a muzzle velocity of 3460 ft/sec with no shoot downs.
    Worrying about pulley sizes and water pump rotation is just pissing in the wind. I've never seen a HAMB thread get as far off track as this one. Its a no brainer.

    Gary
     
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  19. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 8,063

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Wow, this thread is going all over the place, we're even talking about bullet's being fired by a supersonic jet, LOL!

    Gman is mostly correct, overheating at speed is typically about insufficient cooling capacity, not airflow. But coolant flow also needs to be considered, so HRP's question about pulley sizes is a good question as well. We sometimes see comments on threads about cooling issues that warn about the coolant moving too fast through the engine to remove heat, and that is flat out wrong. In practical matters you can't really pump the coolant too fast, the more heat being generated, the faster the coolant flow needs to be, and the more efficiently it will transfer heat to the radiator.

    Some discussion going on about the pump having the correct rotation, and of course that is a requirement, but if the pump had the wrong rotation the engine would heat up at low speed as well as at high. So yes, go ahead and check that, but I don't think that will be the issue.

    There was also discussion about whether the engine was overheating or running hot. Overheating = boiling over. As long as you keep the coolant from boiling it's not overheating. Straight water boils at 212F at sea level. Add 50/50 antifreeze mixture and you raise the boiling point to 223F. Now, increase the pressure in the system and you gain ~ 3 degrees F for every 1 PSI increase in pressure.

    So, just as a matter of basic cooling system design make sure you're running a 50/50 antifreeze/water mix and a good pressure cap, with a new good quality aluminum radiator 15# cap is not unreasonable. So now the coolant is not going to boil until >250F. And any decent cooling system should easily keep a mild SBC under 250F in even the most extreme conditions.

    There was also some discussion about air flow through the engine compartment. Ahemmmm, have you seen the engine compartment of just about any new car made in the last decade or so? It is pretty safe to say that your 49 Dge w/ SBC has far, far more air flow through the engine compartment than any new car or truck, and cooling is not a problem for them. Face it, if you're having a cooling problem, it's not because of air flow through the engine compartment. And having headers on is not going to affect that. Your chasing the wrong thing if you're getting rid of the headers to address a cooling problem. Go ahead and get rid of them if you don't like them, but don't do it to cool the engine down.

    Slow down your thinking, go back to the basics. This isn't rocket science.
     
  20. eddie rockitnyc
    Joined: Feb 10, 2006
    Posts: 79

    eddie rockitnyc
    Member
    from nyc

    i see the concern about rotation. not sure exactly what pump is on right now . i'll need a bit of time off work to check. thanks.
    with all the information i received (gratefully and respectfully) it's starting to seem like rocket science. anyway, thank you for the specific areas that you had covered. i'll go back to 50/50 mix as iv'e been told 90% water runs cooler.(i should have known better)
    as for increased pressure, you said a #15 rad cap? not sure yet what that means, if at all, in relation to psi.
    but i'll def look into it.
    regardless of engine temp effect, the headers are going. the heat generating comes right through into the passenger compartment(separate issue).
    lastly, a gentleman here (Ray) suggested a 180 deg, high flow thermostat. do you think that will help as well. i'm running a 160 deg Tstat now. thanks very much for time with this. E.
     

  21. Probably so. Of course, that assumes one can solder.

    Ben
     
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  22. HOTRODPRIMER
    Joined: Jan 3, 2003
    Posts: 64,593

    HOTRODPRIMER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    With a reverse WP the impeller moves water in in a opposite direction and if the water pump is not driven by a serpentine belt it will not cool.

    As for the pulleys they can make a huge difference in cooling,a water pump pulley that is the same circumference or greater than the crank shaft pulley will result in a car running hot at higher speeds. HRP
     
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  23. Some of us do.
     
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  24. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,256

    Gman0046
    Member

    68 Chevy water pumps are not reverse flow. 180 thermostat will have no effect.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  25. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 8,063

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    That's why I said slow down and go back to the basics, you're getting a lot of advice from people who have forgotten them.

    Just to clarify this, water does transfer heat more effectively than antifreeze does, but antifreeze raises the boiling point. See the tradeoff? The added benefit of the antifreeze is the anti-corrosion protection it provides. Rust and corrosion on the surfaces of the cooling passages acts as insulation, preventing efficient cooling. So if you don't run 50/50 ratio antifreeze/water, you lose the benefit of the increased boiling point, and you lose the protection against rust, scale and corrosion.

    Also, the type of water you use makes a difference. Most tap water anywhere around the US is very hard (high mineral content). The minerals will plate out on the interior surfaces creating scale. It is important to run softened water. Deionized is the preferred water to use (available at most fish aquarium stores). Next to that would be reverse osmosis water, which many people have in their homes. And next to that is good old softened water from a water softener.

    Note #15 cap, but a 15# cap, where the # sign stands for "pounds", or 15 psi pressure cap.

    Well, 180* thermostat is fine to use. If both the 160 & the 180 are working properly the 180 is not going to cool the engine any more effectively than the 160 is. The problem you may be having is one that seems pretty common these days, and that is the thermostat not opening effectively, restricting flow rate and leading to heating. In my A the damned thing doesn't open the first time until the temp gets up >200*, then it opens and the temp comes right down & stays between 180 - 190.

    It is probably a good idea to go with a good quality Thermostat. Mine is a standard NAPA part for a SBC, 180*. Robert Shaw is a brand that is mentioned often. Here is a link to a high performance Tstat from Speedway. Pricey little bugger.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bra-330-160
     
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  26. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 8,063

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I missed where he posted that he used a water pump for a 68 Chevy, but in any case, if his belt arrangement is set for reverse flow (I haven't seen any clarity on his belt arrangement, but it seems he may be running a serpentine belt, though I really don't know that, just a suspicion) and he has a standard pump, then that would be a problem. But as I wrote above, I don't think that is the problem, or it would be consistent at both low and high speed.
     
  27. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,618

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    My '55 F100: 350/350; '79 Dodge radiator (318 V8 type) mechanical fan, NO shroud. Bumpy cam, Edel 600.
    160* thermostat, temp went to 190 then back down to 170; then back above 190, (195+)

    Went to 190* thermostat, runs consistently at 180*, like I like.
     
  28. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 15,200

    Budget36
    Member

    Let me clarify, in post #31, the OP mentions "GM Crate Motor" and "checking the Serp belt"

    When I mentioned '68 Chevy WP, I also said it was not intended to be used with the serp setup-assuming a factory style setup- no idea about aftermarket stuff.

    Although no direct experience running the wrong style pump, when I used to frequent 3rdgen.org, there would always be someone complaining of highway overheating, now they may have had low speed overheating too, but maybe didn't notice it, but never mentioned it.

    The posts would usually start out with "Just put on a new WP, now overheats", always was the wrong pump.

    So, anyways, I guess the OP will let us know more after he get's more info after work.
     
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  29. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 3,671

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Maybe not....
    At high speed the engine is working harder....producing more heat.
    When it's hot Does it seem to cool any better.....or the temp drop some with the heat on with the heat fan on high?

    This is a simple check to see if you need more radiator. Drive till it warms....crank on the heat to see if engine temp drops some.

    I used the aircraft analogy to explain a car out running it's radiator fan or more accurately the rate of air transfer at highway speed that makes the fan a nonissue.

    The aircraft speeds I was referring to were the supersonic speeds like say the SR71 flew. At those speeds guns and missiles are unusable.
     
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  30. ceege
    Joined: Jul 4, 2017
    Posts: 204

    ceege
    Member
    from NW MT

    I do assume you can solder. People on this board have a lot of talent. Soldering is easy. I think the rodding technique is easy too. Most people have the skills but do not realize it. I do agree with porknbeaner,
    radiator repair is not a thriving business in our throw away society.
     
    Hnstray likes this.

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