The coupe ate its camshaft....

Damn it! Just when you think you have it figured out, something like this goes and happens....

I finally had the mill in my model A running great. 390 Cadillac mill...6 97's...500/300 Crane Cams regrind of a stock cam...oversized valves...Vertex magneto...Timing on the money...all six strombergs sync-ed up...it was sweet...for the whole four days it lasted...
I took the car on a 50 mile drive on Friday, 40 of those miles spent on the highway at 70 mph (20 miles from my place to Oshkosh, Wi..10 miles around Oshkosh...and then 20 getting back home). Once I got to Oshkosh, it seemed like the mill was missing on a couple of cylinders. Weird. So I got it home and finally got a chance to mess around with it today. Two wet plugs....cylinders 3 and 6. Changed the plugs and went for a ride...no change. Changed the plug wires and went for a ride....cylinder 6 seems much better, and 3 still had a wet plug. Put a compression gauge on cylinder 6...150lbs pressure. Put the compression gauge on cylinder 3....30lbs. I pulled the driver's side valve cover...bent intake valve pushrod on cylinder 3. I replaced the pushrod...checked it with compression gauge...150lbs....but now I noticed that the exhuast valve wasn't moving on that cylinder.
So I took the rockers back off, and compressed the exhaust spring to see if it was a stuck valve (this is a hydraulic cam, so this could have been a possibility)...the valve moved freely. I pulled the lifter out with a magnet...the bottom of the lifter is dished in like a bowl, and if you look into the hole it came out of and turn the motor over, you can see that there's a flat spot on the cam where the lobe used to be....
So, any ideas on why it only took out one lobe? And why was the intake pushrod bent? Keep in mind that this mill is still fresh...1200 miles on it at most....broke the cam in for a half hour at 2500 rpm...and I hadn't spun this thing any faster than 4200 rpm yet....Looks like I'm changing my cam....again....

 

Kid, There's an article in the new Hot Rod or Car Craft about this cam situation. It seems the oil companies are not putting the zinc additives in the passenger car oils. Rotella 15-40 diesel oil is what you want to use.
Sorry about the problem. Make sure you get all that metal out of there.

 

I chewed off a couple of lobes on my cam a few years back, almost the same set of problems you had 'cept I didnt bend any lifters. Took the cam out, then took it and the motor to a mate who builds race engines and asked WTF??
He shrugged and said shit happens, might have started off as a nick in the hardening on the lobe or just a dodgey cam. However after a little digging around it seems that the grind on the cam may have been a little too radical for the motor and (Fucked if I understand why) that may have been part of the problem.
Re built the motor, dragged 496hp otta it, then killed it a year latter missing a gear.
Bugger.
Doc.

 

Thanks for the input guys....That's the first I've heard of the oil/zinc issue...I've been running Pennzoil 10W-30 in all of my stuff for about 14 years with never a problem...and that's what I've been running in my '59 Cadillac with the same size mill....I broke in the cam on that one too, and since then I've put about 250,000 miles on it...but I'm gonna go pick up that Car Craft before putting this bitch back together...I just tore the grille/grille shell, and intake and carbs off of her...so, soon I'll be able to see the full extent of the carnage...
I don't think that the cam's too radical for the motor...it's a 512 lift with a 310 duration...and I have an even more radical one on the shelf...a 562 lift with a 307 duration...but I can't run that one with oversize valves...lift's too big and the 2.02's end up bouncin off the pistons...

 

i read the same artical, its in Hot Rod

 

The following is an update from Comp Cams regarding flat tappet cams and break in/lobe wear. I thought it was interesting and wanted to pass it along because it can potentially affect everyone, even those with properly broken in cams, to have a flat tappet cam go flat. The break in lube that they mention in the text is NOT the lube you have tradionally wiped on the lobes at installation and comes out black and clings to the cam. I just broke a solid liftter cam in on a big block Chevy and currently use Delleo oil (diesel 15w40).

1.800.999.0853 ​

​

www.compcams.com FAX 901.366.1807​

Flat Tappet Camshafts​

Recent changes in oil and engine technology are likely the cause of
premature camshaft failure; here’s what you can do to protect your engine!​

Premature flat tappet camshaft failure has been an issue of late and not just with one brand or type of camshaft.
In almost every case, the hardness or the taper of the cam lobe is suspected, yet most of the time that is not the
problem. This growing trend is due to factors that are unrelated to camshaft manufacture or quality. Changes in
today's oil products and “advanced” internal engine design have contributed to a harsher environment for the
camshaft and a potential for failure during break-in. But there are several things you can do to turn the tide on
this discouraging trend.​

Proper Camshaft Set-Up & Break-In​

Proper flat tappet camshaft set-up and break-in, as any engine builder knows, are keys to how long a camshaft
will last, both short and long term. Making certain that the camshaft and lifters are properly lubricated will guarantee
that the camshaft and lifters are protected during the critical initial start-up of your newly-built engine.
COMP Cams® offers the right product for this job (Part #154), and it is available in several different size containers
for engine builder convenience. To further enhance this “relationship,” we strongly recommend the use of
COMP Cams® Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive (Part #159) during the break-in. While this additive was originally
developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long
term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter
failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from
off-the-shelf oil. These specialized COMP Cams® lubricants are the best “insurance policy” you can buy and the
first step to avoiding durability problems with your new flat tappet camshaft.​

Adequate Lubrication​

Another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put,
today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The
EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils;
however these changes to the oil have only made life tougher on your camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically
the reduction of important additives such as zinc and manganese, which help break-in and overall camshaft
life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend Shell Rotella T oil for the break-in
procedure. Most often used in diesel engine applications, this higher lubricity oil works in gasoline engines
as well.​

4-10-06​

Research & Development Dept.​

TECH BULLETIN​

1.800.999.0853 ​

​

www.compcams.com FAX 901.366.1807​

Part #255​

Today’s engines are great at providing oil to every engine component except one - your camshaft. Windage trays, limiting oil’s
ability to reach the top of the engine, modification of connecting rod side clearances for less splash oil and special oil pans further
complicate both the break-in process and camshaft operation in general. But there are several things you can do to correct
these problems.
COMP Cams® offers flat tappet lifters with oiling holes in the cam face surface, which will increase oil flow to the lifter-camshaft
lobe contact point. Furthermore, using a lifter bore grooving tool (COMP Cams® #5003) will enhance oiling throughout the
camshaft and valve train. As we all know by now, better oil flow means better initial break-in and increased camshaft durability.​

Flat Tappet Lifter Selection – Choose Carefully!​

In addition to these engine modifications, make certain you purchase high-quality lifters. Most lifters look alike, but you don’t really
know where they were produced. “Imported” flat tappets often times use inferior lifter castings and ​

​

DO NOT deliver the durability
of COMP Cams® high-quality, US-built lifters. COMP Cams® lifters are built to strict diameter and radius tolerances and
designed to fit precisely within their lifter bores. This ensures the lifter rotates properly and decreases the potential for failure.
Additionally, COMP Cams® Flat Tappet Lifters have the correct oil band depth and location to properly regulate the internal oiling
of your engine.​

• Double check your camshaft and lifter set-up prior to the break-in process, and use an ample amount of the
supplied assembly lube on all lobes, distributor gear and the face of bottom of each lifter.
• Use high-lubricity engine oil such as Shell Rotella T oil to help during the break-in process and use COMP
Cams® Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive (Part #159).
• Use flat tappet lifters with cam face oiling provisions, such as COMP Cams® Part #800-16 (GM) or
#817-16 (Ford).
• Use a COMP Cams® Lifter Bore Grooving Tool (#5003) to increase oiling.
• Use high-quality, U.S.-built COMP Cams® lifters to make certain you are receiving the best quality lifter you
can buy. Avoid “brown bag” lifters.​

Competition Cams, Inc.
3406 Democrat Road
Memphis, TN 38118
901.795.2400​

Five steps to increased flat tappet camshaft durability:​

 

Right on guys...this is very informative....thanks for all of than info...keep it coming if you have any more....

 

I buy AC Break-In Compound by the case and have used it in every new engine I build or install at the shop for the last 10 years or so. I haven't had any flat lobe problems since I started using it. AC part number is 25010647.

 

Another good alternative is GM EOS, put a quart in during break in, it has saved me on several camshafts the last few years.

http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/PartsAccessories/EngineCareProducts.jsp

Joe

 

just one more reason to go roller. mabey someone will begin producing affordable conversion rollers sometime in our lives. the last time I priced a set for my olds ,cam and lifters were gonna run me little over a grand.

christ. I have bought multiple cars for less than that.

 

We've been running Rotella T in our truck diesels for years. Great oil! Never thought about using it in a gas motor.

Good Info!

 

The oil deal is right on, camshaft break in is critical also. A lot of people are scared to run a brand new motor/cam up to 2500/3000 and hold it as soon as it fires.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126460&highlight=break

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107853

FRAM filters are serious garbage in my book.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90407&highlight=fram+junk

 

I'v seen a couple of cams fail in less than 3000 miles. And a lot of discussion about the cause. Some guestions that need to be answered would be was the cam heat treated or hardened after grinding? New lifters or did you have the old ones refaced? The cam grinder I typically use. D. Elgin, Rockwell test every lifter and lobe. he has discarded many brand new lifters! A soft lifter will destroy a lobe pretty quick. And you know you cant install old lifters on a new cam. Also bedding in the cam is very important. A good quality cam lube must be used. I typically use Red Line assembly lube but Crane and other companys sell their own brands. The method to bed a cam is to start the engine and imediatly bring it up to about 2 - 2.5k rpm and run it here for about 20 - 30 minutes. If there is a problem shut it down and fix it. Start it back up and imediatly bring back up to 2500 rpm till the bed in peroid is complete then you can idol it down. It would be interesting to hear how other set up and break in their cams. Being a shade tree and arm chair mechanic I'm always interested what people consider rules of thumb in engine assembly.

 

Yep...it had all brand new lifters....

 

I'd be interested in what oil/additives are recommended. I run 30w detergent in my flathead, is 30w having the zinc and such removed like the other oils? Is there some off the shelf additive available locally that would help? Lucas with regular oil?

And what about multi weight diesel oils in daily drivers?

 

I don't want to start another Boyd-bashing session, but how many times on American Hot Rod have they spent hours spinning the engine while it refuses to start? And how many times has the same thing happened to us or someone we know? A High School buddy of mine spent almost a week trying to get a cam swap to start and run properly, you know for sure the cam lube was completely wiped off by that time. It was a Ford 289 and he didn't realize his new cam changed the firing order to 351W order. Don't know if it flattened a lobe but that car never ran properly.

 

I run Delo 400 in everything with good results. Any diesel rated oil still has adequate zinc in it.

Dawg

 

Houston,,we have a problem.

 

Most cam companies do recomment using a single weight oil (like 30W) for cam break in. As I understand it, the wider the spread on the viscosity (for example 5w40 has a wider spread that 15w40) the more unstable the additive package becomes. I personally run 15w40 (either Rotella T or Dellleo) wich are both packaged as diesel oils but are also safe for gas burners in my 56 with a 454. It is not recommended to use these oils in modern vehicles that have either a catalytic converter or O2 sensor. It seems that as an engine gets some miles on it the zinc migrates and coats the O2 sensor and fouls up the cats

 

man, you guys got me worried. i've buil plent of engines but mostly just sbc. i need to have my 291 DeSoto cam reground for my rebuild and now im a little nervous. i cant just go buy a new one. who to trust for a regrind and where to find new lifters for such an animal?

 

If you prime the earl in the motor before trying to crank the ever livin shit out of it, you can get away with detergent oils. I like Dello, it's got no detergents. Diesel shit is ALWAYS good.....even the John Deere crap in 5 gallon barrels. My flat 4 was built using it and runs it.....and it's gas.

A good rule of thumb when cranking the crap outta the motor.....15 alligators crank, 60 alligators of non cranking.

**thats 15 seconds of cranking to 1 minute of cool off **

 

Well, I guess that the cranking the shit out of it suggestion just might have some bearing on my situation...Tried to start that thing for quite some time with LOTS of bad luck...story of my life...timing was way off, couple of bent valves, and then the last bit...bad gas. For god's sake, don't buy high test from Mobil...I bought it three days before draining it back out again...it came out as green as Mountain Dew...not cool. I just dropped off another stock cam for a regrind...Howard's Cams outta Oshkosh, Wi...they have a one week turn around time, they're 20 miles from my door, and if you supply your own core like I did, it only costs you 75 bones to have the cam reground. So with a little bit of luck, I'll have that thing back on the road by next week sometime. As far as lifters, well, I've always run Napa lifters in my shit...stock replacement ones...I really wish I could find a solid lifter cam for that 390 Caddy mill...There's just something about 16 solid valve lifters rattling away that just makes me smile...

Thanks for all of the info folks...I guess I'll be switching to Rotella T...

 

hi
hmmm i thought we were bedding in the cam bearings not the lobes
never had much luck with regrinds or re faced lifters but i know with team obselete thats what you have to do some times.
we used the cheapest additive free oil we could find that did not say "re cycled" (read brake fliud) assuming the rest of the motor was running in too, it lasted the hour or so..
cant see how any modern oil could kill a cam in 80 miles no matter what precious metal they leave out
this time just for kicks put one set of rocker arms on at a time (if your engine design allows)wind her over by hand one revolution and watch the valve springs compress if you cant get a feeler blade in there coilbind could be your problem
good luck and remember this is a recreational activity!

 

Shit! There went my ride.Sorry to hear of your problem.Let me know if you need a hand.....or someone to hang out and drink your diet Cokes. -Strat.

 

Rotella T can be hard to find. If you don't have a truck stop nearby you can sometimes find it in gallons at WalMart.

 

If you have a Sams Club near by, they have Rotella T by the case of 6 1gal. jugs for $46.00

 

Yep...nice big truck stop about 4 miles from my door....still waiting to hear back from Howard's...Thanks Bruce...but I only drink regular Coke

 

I emailed Valvoline (because that's what I usually use) and here was their response:

 

Cool...thanks for the info man...This thread's turning into something great...

 

Also, the VR-1 is available in 30,40,50,60,10W30 & 20W50