How do you verify Model A frame numbers? Disassemble the vehicle? What do you do when the number is corroded away? I have a very nice '28 A rolling frame, except for the area of the serial number. It is virtually the only corrosion on the frame, but it is deep enough and enough metal is missing that the serial number will never be recovered. It could be welded, smoothed and re-stamped. Also, my state will issue a title for a vehicle made from parts. Some documentation on the parts and major component acquirement process is required.
Yes, it has to be disassembled. There has to be a number there for me to verify. If there is no number, one would need to be placed on the vehicle in accordance with your particular state's laws. That varies by every single state. I mean, you can have me over to have a look at the number, or you can give it over to the California Highway Patrol, when they have an appointment for you, and let them take it apart, and, oh yeah, they will only inspect a complete vehicle. I only inspect complete vehicles, too. My "complete" may, or may not necessarily be the same as CHP's. As you have mentioned, your particular state will title from parts. California also has a Specially Constructed Vehicle program, which requires a fair amount of documentation as well, and has restrictions after-the-fact. I recommend that be avoided, if possible, by whatever (legal) means necessary.
I was being facetious when I asked that question. You mean to say the CHP will remove the body to look on the top of the frame for a nearly 90 year old stamped number that may or may not be visible? Who puts the car back together and to what degree of quality. Do they replace the hardware they destroy and repair any damages, align fenders and doors, etc. Either you're pulling my leg or left coasters need to reign in their government.
Do you see why cars with titles that match the actual real parts can cost x2 to x4 as much as a pile of parts with no title? The guys buying real restored papered cars. Dropping the original body on a new P&J roller then sell off the original frame and drive train. Keeping the title for the new rod. Problem is the title stays with the factory numbers. Those are on the frame/engine. NOTHING on the new rod matches the title in hand.
Not true, changing a frame s perfectly legal if you follow the rules, thousands of Toyota Tacomas had their frames swapped without issue, mine included. A frame is just a component part, in MA you need an inspection from the state troopers but it really isn't too big a deal. My bone stock model A coupe has no frame numbers and is titled on the engine number, installing a flathead means I will need a State Trooper to look at the old engine and look at the new one installed in the vehicle and issue a VIN plate. a bit of a hassle but not difficult. Lets not get too carried away here.
100% true. Same procedure here. The problem is guys NOT doing that. The problem starts for guys trying to get a title for a assembled car that never existed out of collected parts. It all depends on the state you live in. AND in order to get that new title and replacement VIN you need a complete car with receipts for materials so you can pay some large taxes to register it. Which why a frame with matching title is so valuable. You don't need an inspection in a lot of states and you don't need a complete car. You can put everything in your name with paperwork only and no inspection.
Yes, they will tear it down to find the number, and they don't give a shit what happens in the process. They bear no liability for any damage. You only end up at CHP if you are too foolish to not call a California Vehicle Verifier.
So what happens when a Californian buys a total restored Classic or Hot Rod restored or built in a non title state like Connecticut? Bob
It has to have a VIN/serial number inspection, no exceptions, title, or no title (CA will issue it a title). Your choices are: DMV drone. CHP inspection officer (any old LEO used to be able to do it, but they cracked down). State licensed and bonded vehicle verifier. The verifier will need to see the number. As I have mentioned, that number absolutely must match what California calls "supporting documents", so you have to have some kind of paper on it. When I brought my vintage motorcycle from Connecticut, to California, it had to have its (all matching) numbers inspected. They issued me a title. The DMV drone looked it up in the big book to confirm that CT does not issue titles on old stuff. It proved to be no issue.
Thread hijack alert!!! Geez...the guy wants to build a frigging car, for crying out loud. Build the car you want. Drive it the way it is. It's really cool right now. Buy the Bishop/Tardel book, "How To Build a Traditional Ford Hot Rod". Assemble/buy your parts pile to modify your existing car. Accumulate what you need. It's going to take a while if you're on a budget. What you're starting with is awesome. You should see what I started with . I bought the WRONG rolling chassis and wound up having to buy almost the entire thing over again. Out of what I bought, the only usable items turned out to be the '35 Ford wire wheels, the coupe/pickup rear fenders, front cross member (which I wound up replacing too) and a few other parts. That pile in the first pic is garbage. Walk away. I bought my GOOD frame for $300. It had original Henry paint on it and legible numbers on it. In NY, if you own the antique for more than a year and it has no title you can title it off the numbers, which I did. They give you a provisional registration so you can drive it, then do a title search and provide you with a full title after that. Easy-peasy and I have done it numerous times. In fact, I have a Model A frame (my original roached one) in the back of my yard that I am going to title. Then I'm going to cut the section out of the frame with the numbers on it and sell it as a "titled" model A frame. Is it legal? You bet your ass it is. Just ask ANY of the anal retentive, OCD Corvette guys that started their "1957" build on just the piece of the cowl that had the VIN plate on it. You can even ask the DMV in your state if it's legal and they will admit that if the section of the frame/body/etc. that has the VIN on it is legible, then THAT car is LEGAL if it has a title that matches the numbers...PERIOD. Best to educate yourself on your particular states laws regarding the same if you have no title when you start but I'm assuming you do since that car is really nice. Get the book mentioned above, go to the big swap meets every spring and fall and ESPECIALLY Hershey in the fall and buy your parts on a budget. This, for me, was the most fun out of the entire build. The hunt for the rusty, old junk that I would painstakingly pour my love and skill into to refurbish, modify and fabricate that would eventually become my Hot Rod. That may take you a couple of years. I collected parts for three years before I started any fabrication work at all, but then I built my entire Hot Rod from parts. I didn't start with a running, driving car like you are. In the meantime, enjoy your really cool vintage Model A roadster as it is. Do research, read, and lurk on the HAMB and learn from the people on here. Building your Hot Rod in your head takes more hours than building it in your garage. When you have assembled all the needed parts and KNOWLEDGE, tear your car down and have at it. But remember, it takes a LOT of fabrication and modification to put a V8 in a model A frame. Juice brakes, new engine/trans. New rear end. Shorten torque tube/drive shaft. Step frame in rear. Send front axle to Okie Joe for the drop. New pedal set up. New steering box needed. Lots of really good welding needed by qualified individuals. Et cetera and so on. Your "car" will be down for a long while. Hey...I'm pretty good, but I have a life...and a job that had me working 6 days a week. It took me 6 years to get my car driving and it it's FAR from done. Thankfully, now I can ENJOY driving it while I still work on it. ENJOY driving your car. If it was MY car, I think I would put a hot four banger in it with some cool eye candy speed parts under the hood. I would send the front axle out for a drop, probably put a Model T spring in the rear to lower the back (so you don't have to take the body off to step the rear frame). I would put a '39 Ford three speed behind the banger with the Clings adapter to keep the Model A pedals where they are and add the juice master cylinder. Get a later banjo rear to handle the newly found torque on my new, really hot banger motor. Big and little bias ply tires to complete the stance and rake. Fenders stay ON for this car. Hot rods with fenders are COOL as hell and it will set you apart from the crowd. You can do ALL of that without having to take the body off and if the motor is built right it will be every bit as fast as a stock-ly flathead V8 and easier, cheaper and faster to build than tearing down the whole car, especially if you are putting a flathead V8 in it. Those flattys are big money. If your car runs and drives now and the engine/trans/rear are good, you can sell those parts to a restorer to help fund your build AFTER you put the hot new banger/'39 trans/later torque tube rear in your car. Remember, all the above is just my humble opinion. It's your car. Do what you want. But...if you DO tear it all down to go the AV8 route, give me a call in a couple of years if you get tired of the pile in your garage that isn't going anywhere and I will gladly take it all off your hands for a fair price. I'm not being mean or sarcastic. That DOES happen...often. Regardless, good luck with whatever you decide. Andy
well said andy. like I said in the beginning you've got a neat little rod that could be even neater. build it how you want . and don't listen to these PROFESIONAL car verifier. what a crock a shit name title that means nothing.
Thanks Andy. You make a lot of since and some very good points. I have that book been over it several times. I also got the green bible trying to understand and being able to tell what parts are what. I've always been a chevy muscle car guy until this sweet roadster. The chevy world is almost every year and parts are the same. These Ford's are a new world because they change so much. I already have a good flathead v8 and trans I got from a friend. I've just found Aaron's 29 av8 threat that's really extremely informative. That's really taught me a lot. This place is really helpful and everyone has been so nice. I really appreciate it.
In the 60's and 70's, I was witness several times to the CHP stopping large groups of motorcyclists and inspecting for correct numbers. At the time, Harley id numbers were stamped on the left side engine case. If you built a bike from scratch, you bought a new unstamped case from a Harley dealer, took all your receipts to the Dept. of Motor Vehicles, and were issued a DRF (Dept. Registered Frame) number. The location of this number changed a couple of times in this period. I've seen cops scraping paint off the gooseneck to find the number while the owner was telling them to look on top of the frame at the seat location where they were required to put the number when they got it. If the number wasn't in the right place for that time, the bike got hauled to impound. There is nothing sadder than seeing three or four bikes slung together with a chain between the top of the engines and bottom of the tanks hanging off the back of a wrecker. Then you had to fight to prove that it was your bike and you built it legally.
Mr TF Really....Forget all replies on your post ..Just send more (lots more)photos of your avatar... Then we can discuss your other problems
Well All thread hijack arguements and what not aside my vote goes for 1. Spend the 60 bucks for Vern's book. 2 make out a shopping list of the parts and pieces you want. 3. accumulate those parts and pieces. 4. prep, paint and assemble any and all of those parts and pieces that it is practical to do. That means get and prep the dropped axle, install the later spindles and juice brakes, decide if you are going to swap the stock bones over or do something else. decide what you are doing for steering and get that ready. Buy the rear you want and get it ready. Have everything there, do your homework so you are prepared when time comes to do the swap and it won't take much longer than swapping the body over and you may not even have to unbolt the body from the frame On the T with A frame, I am only seeing parts for the A V8 swap. If the block isn't cracked it is probably worth 500 or so to be the parts supplier for the engine, trans, rear and brakes. That it is only worth the value of the parts you can actually use and no more. You can probably get a little of the money back selling off the frame even if it is only the value of the crossmembers plus selling the bare front axle and maybe the bones and even the steering box. That might save you a few months of hunting for brakes, spindles engine block and what not if the engine block is good. If the frame ended up not being as bad as it looks in the photos, who knows, you might have a start for a banger powered go job there with the left overs from the roadster. At any rate don't let the banger out of the garage even if it is confined to space over in the corner until you make sure that the title is squared away after the swap, some vehicles still have titles with the engine number on them and it makes life 1000 times easier if you have to have the car inspected to update the title and you can tell the inspector that here is the old engine with that number on it sitting right here where I put it after I pulled it.
After all the good advice on here I did decide to pass on that deal and just bought a A model frame on here. Starting collecting parts. Looks to already be set up for a v8.
Hope you had that frame professionally vehicle verified..... Just in case you ever sell it to a buyer in a foreign country like Californication. We'd hate to see you spending your golden years rotting away in an 8' x 10" cell .
But..."Do you want to tell us where you got this frame, and did you stamp some numbers? Talk to us, we're your friends...Anything you say can and will be used against you." Hell, sounds like friendly Californians to me... (not like I EVER heard that before!)
When, not if, records go digital, this could be any, or all of those who did not listen to an "expert". Your gamble: http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2017/12...ted-after-it-was-reported-stolen-in-1980.html
Sounds like all Californians with Model A's that have older restorations better start pulling the bodies off to confirm that the almost 90 year old number that was stamped into the frame is still there and legible and matches the title. Just think of how many Model A's got rebuilt between the 1950's and 1970's. Surely no frames ever got swapped or VIN's lost through age, blasting or grinding right? Sounds like a lifetime of work for a "vehicle verifier". Links to worst case anecdotes are amusing, but of little importance to free thinking individuals. Why is the sky always falling in some peoples world?
It was a story picked up by them, from a local station: http://longisland.news12.com/story/...olbrook-mans-mustang-for-being-stolen-in-1980
If you want to gamble with a potential loss of investment, or worse, a felony, that is your prerogative. If you want to act a fool, that is your right, just don't recommend that others do it, and don't make the rest of us look like criminals in the process. All four of my Model A's have visible, valid serial numbers, and one even has a serial number matching engine block (not usable, but there). All have legitimate titles. I just recently inspected another Model A, which also had a serial number matching engine and frame. Every single Model A that I have inspected had an undisturbed, easily readable serial number. That's 21 now, So much for anecdotes. Even my Grandfather's Model A, in New England has a visible, valid, readable serial number. So does my Brother's. It sounds like maybe the folks you know are the outliers, or maybe they have something to hide. And, like I have said previously, I know people that have gone to prison over this. GTA is not a funny thing to be convicted of.
Computer storage has never been less expensive in Human history, and it gets cheaper every 18-months. All 50-states are moving toward permanent records, in one form, or another, scanning old records as they go. There will be no more "out-of-the-system". As more of these systems come on-line, and are linked to each other, a great many of you are likely to be screwed.
The Jalopy Journal
