Technical Doing a valve job the old way

Well no. Technically the song was written about a 1948 Buick Roadmaster hearse, which blew its transmission in 1965 in Blind River, Ontario. In the song, it's a 1962, but ... never mind. Mind your shifts in the "long decline", is the rule though I guess. Note too, this is yet a different hearse (nicknamed "Mort 2") that Young was famously spotted driving in California by Stephen Stills. That was a 1953 Pontiac hearse. In case you're wondering, old hearse vehicles were prized by musicians (bands) as even better than vans, as they made moving heavy amplifiers and equipment much easier from the back. Surfers favored them as well, so explaining the line "Maybe the Beach Boys have got you now" in the song.

 

I don't have that record...need to get it before the trip!

I don't know what sound system my brother has in mind for this thing. He's kind of into mobile sound, and pretty well known for riding the Loud Bike around Tucson.

 

Well, Jim, that kinda cuts my idea in half, lol. You probably know that back in the old days that slot was put there to use a hand crank or electric powered tool to work the valves back and forth. Your really not supposed to spin the valve while lapping them in, according to the “ book”. It says you might not get a true seal by spinning. Never could really wrap my head around that if the valve was true. In my travels to many junk stores etc, I have acquired both and hand crank and a electric power tool for this, but would do you much good with not all the valves not having slots. Bones

 

Jim, if you need any valves, heads, intake or exhaust manifolds for that 346 I have a little stash of 346 FlatCad parts in the shop. Watching...

 

Happy Birthday Salty

Did you find all the Easter eggs that you hid last night?

 

I have a manual valve grinding tool I got from my dad many years ago. It looks like one of those old hand drills (the ones that operate like an egg-beater), but it has a suction cup on the end rather than a chuck. The mechanism is set up to do "180° clockwise, 180° counter clockwise, lift up" with one rotation of the handle. I think this is the proscribed method of hand-lapping valves. I think I'll go over to "Google" and see what I can find in the way of a new suction cup for it.

(I just realized I had to use one obsolete mechanism to describe another; time seems to be passing me by rather rapidly.)

 

Sounds like fun, im 1/2 hour from Joliet. Could probably hook up the trailer and head down 55 to bloomington, help out, or....make cash offers on the spot

 

You probably know you can run 4 ring pistons with 3 rings in fact this was a popular hop up trick to reduce friction on flathead Fords. I suspect it isn't the cost of the extra ring that is the holdup.

 

Norb I am still looking for the ones I hid last year.

 

Yes, in fact a HAMB'r posted some dyno results of this very thing a year or so back. The results showed quite a HP increase.

 

Do you have a link to that post or any information I could use in a search? I'd like to see that thread.

 

No, I didn't save it. But he was an owner of a shop, and did lot's of flathead work...something tells me his name was Gary, but I could be wrong...I haven't noticed him around in a while, and I can't recall his screen name.

 

It's not the number of rings that makes the ring set hard to find and expensive...it's the odd size of the rings.

 

I did some searching....may be the right HAMB'r...maybe not

@GOSFAST will be able to confirm/deny it's him.

 

Jim,

Sorry for hijacking your thread; I'll see if I can contact him in the "Barn".

 

Here are some of my older posts on the honorable Okie Valve Job, as I did it at about age 17 with no money and almost zero input from anyone who knew anything at all:

The old lapping-in okie valve job has a lot you can say against it, but it is capable of keeping an old engine running for cheap--and it's pretty much the way most valve jobs were done except at the best equipped garages until at least WWII.
There is no way of course to narrow and you can't fix any serious defects in the surfaces. You are widening everything, which would be a no-no in any modern valvery but here is actually a necessity--because the part of valve and seat that do the work with engine hot are somewhat away from where they meet cold.
I learned valve work from a pre-WWI manual in the early sixties--I had no idea how modern work was done, and it didn't matter because I had no money anyhow. I did pop for about $5 worth of high tech equipment from JC Whitney, including a little giz that held emery paper in a 45 degree cone to clean up the seat. I had no idea how lucky I was to be working on a flathead Ford with hard seats that were basically indestructible...
Just be aware of why this isn't the best way to go and do the best with what's available. The problems are:
1. You almost always need guides...but engines do indeed manage to seat wonky valve action.
2. You are widening seats and can't do anything about it...but the engine will learn to cope for a while.
3. You have to work in a wide potential seating area because you know the working seat is going to be a bit...elsewhere and you have to hope you're at least getting that area clkeaned up.

I've been planning an article on how Ford valve work useta was...depression survival machine work is fascinating.
Oh, you'll need a manual--go get a copy of "The Grapes of Wrath" by Steinbeck. Fully covers auto mechanics for those with three tools and zero money!

So...back then...once the REAL work was done...getting the valves and guides out...the prehistoric valve job was rather simple. Throwing stuff away was limited as much as possible...I think I had to replace about 3 valves. All should have been replaced, of course, but with zero money I only tossed ones with major chunks missing. Guides were ALL rated as perfect, because again no money, and the bores really were at least more round than square.
Major chunks of carbon here dug out with screwdriver and pocket knife, then the 45 degree emery paper holder from JC Whitney was rotated until it got through the blackened muck to the seat. No way in hell to narrow seat with nothing, but that tool quickly got me down to reasonably round and shiny. Valves were scraped and chipped until seats emerged, then they were lapped with traditional rubber suction cup (29 cents! A bargain even for way back when!) and valve grit repeatedly until the round place was visibly shiner than than anything else nearby. This took quite a while as some valves had a bit of actual burning, but eventually the valves were as good as could be achieved without serious and unavailable machine work.
Cleanup of course was a nightmare, with mountains of carbon and Clover grit dropped in everywhere. Eventually, it went back together...and ran fine for a junk engine and a topend done by an untrained Monkey.
I think counting head gaskets, very minor replacement of the absolute worst stuff, and my super-duper valve tools from JC, I was probably running for maybe $30 and a gallon of blood.

 

The Grapes of Wrath is on my mind for this trip...in fact that was my first idea, but finding a 1926 anything, let along a Hudson Super Six, in fixable condition for a sort of reasonable price turns out to be pretty difficult these days.

The whole Route 66 Mother Road trip thing, you know.

Thanks for the memories!

 

First time I heard of this (possibly the only time) was in a 1950 Mechanix Illustrated. Tom McCahill had the Granatelli brothers Grancor garage in Chicago build a flathead for his brand new Ford sedan, dubbed the "MI Ford". Granatelli wanted to leave off one oil ring when he put the engine together promising it would burn very little oil. McCahill vetoed this, saying he wanted an engine that burned NO oil. The MI Ford was a standard hop up of the time with cam, heads, and twin carbs. Cost was under $125 and now his Ford would beat the OHV Cadillac and Oldsmobile V8s the hottest cars on the road. McCahill reported a 0-60 time of 10 seconds flat and a top speed of 112MPH vs 15 seconds and 95 for a typical Ford V8.

Did a quick search for MI Ford but failed to find the original article.

 

Jim , funny thing you should mention Route66, my youngest grandsons birthday was today,he turnrd six, and I told him where I turned six in 1957.... in Arizona on Route 66 beside the highway in my folks Shasta camper. We were doing the Grapes of Wrath backwards, we were coming home to Oklahoma, with a 37 Ford 1 1/2 with trailer, 36 GMC pickup and trailer, 53 Ford wagon and camper. I showed him the Daisy canteen I got for that birthday, still have it in my curio cabinet. Still have the 37 truck and trailer,too. Bones

 

I found these: $88 bucks a set
http://www.cadillacpartsltd.com/19ca346cuinp.html

Other ideas farther out in left field are: can you have these pistons regroooved to accept olds 215 or a conventional set of rings? Niagara makes custom rings and regrooves pistons, wonder which is cheaper
http://www.niagarapistonring.com/

And 3 1/2" = 88.9 mm are there Japanese motor cycle rings that might work? Like Honda CR480
R and Suzuki 500 types, so far: no good info found out as to those ring thicknesses.
3/32" = 0.09375 ~ 2.38 mm
1/8" = 0.125 ~ 3.175 mm
5/32" = 0.156 ~ 3.97 mm

 

I'm not looking for rings any more, but thanks! The link to the Caddy place that sells rings, those are the 3 ring set for replacement pistons, they use different width rings than the original pistons.

 

"Did a quick search for MI Ford but failed to find the original article." It is in an old Fawcett paperback book entitled something like "Sports cars and Hotrods." Fairly common. Probably in the magazine too, but much harder to search out! I think there was quite a bit of fudging on the cost, but who knows.

 

Pretty much what I did on my last flat head semi rebuild on a kinda stuck motor - it was the valves. Sooo I bought some NOS (because they were cheap and were plentiful) and assemble them after a little valve clean up. Motor ran fine....first flathead I drove to the swap meet...and sold.

 

This is the difference between "overhauling" and rebuilding an engine.

 

It seems like a lot of guys don't know you,you may be crazy but I'm betting it will work! HRP

 

I had a Chev 230 with a badly burned valve – the seat was only pitted a bit but the valve was toast. I gooped up a new valve with grinding compound, put the valve in the guide, sat the head on the floor and tightened my cordless drill on the exposed valve stem. I gave it a few revs in one direction while pulling on the drill, then in the other direction. I had to refresh the compound a couple of times but the process smoothed the pit marks on the seat and gave an acceptable pattern on the valve. The engine ran fine for quite a while afterwards. Not something I’m proud of but it worked!

 

I got blessed again (!) by old pal Lester Codd in bonuses for complete paid wiring jobs on a few projects.
Les gave me a nice old Sioux Valve machine, along with a hard seat grinder set, complete in metal box!
The machine had been in an auto repair shop since new, saw very little usage, but was never cleaned.
When I began cleaning it up, I was astonished at how it shone...Its hammertone finish was as 'blue-gray' as new, and all the metal shined up like stainless.
Was going to replace stones, but measured them per the Sioux handbook. They were scarcely used, dressed easily.
All the electrical cords were cracked, like old tires. Quick trip to Merced Electric and a few dollars netted me all new cords, in two gauges. The lamp was rebuilt with a new switch/socket.
I especially appreciated the machine, as I am used to 'the old ways', and practice them when necessary. I have a complete set of "NEWAY" ('new way') valve cutters, hard anodized aluminum 'hubs' or 'arbors' that seat 3 and 5 hard carbon steel cutting blades each.
The cutters go onto a stem, and are turned by a speed handle, (3/8" drive) Overcut 15*, undercut 75*, then finish at 30* or 45*.
I was taking valves down to Mike Angelo's machine shop to reface.
This was since 1968. Before that, it was all by gosh and by golly. Mostly wire brush and electric drill, then the ol' Clover and 'lapping stick'.
FYI...O'Reilly's Auto Parts ('Kragen', 'Checker') has this tool in stock. Wooden stick, turned, with large cup one end and small on the other. I still reserve this tool for 'fine finish'!

Go, Squirrel! Say, does this LaSalle have the long tail Cad standard transmission? (side shift?)

 

I’ve read this post from the beginning and have determined that the old rule that you have to do a “ valve” job on every overhaul is alive and well. Sometimes only cleaning and lapping is all that’s necessary. It depends on the condition of the valves. Remember any time you do a “valve job” you are removing material and making the valve it self thinner. Now, by all means if there is an issue with the valve or seat, yes do a valve job. I once freshen up a 360 Chrysler, out of a Police car for a friend of mine to put in his Ram Charger. It was running fine when we tore it down with 100,000 miles. The engine showed almost zero wear. New ring, bearings, gaskets, but I just cleaned and lapped the valves as there was no groove, the seats were in good shape, width was fine, was no reason to grind on anything. Assemble d the engine, ran great, out lasted his truck. But he was never happy because I didn’t do a “ valve job”. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Bones

 

Bruce, nice to see you posting again.
The Granatelli brothers probably cut McCahill a bit of a deal in return for a little press in MI. I always got a kick out of the story about the "Rocket Car" that they built in "They Call Me Mr. 500"

 

History tells us it will work, both history of Jim's builds and adventures and history of doing valve jobs this way!