Hot Rods Trying to set lash the proper way on a SBC 350!

OK guys, here is a detailed look at how it all started and where we are now (yes we, you all were a part of this Roller-coaster ride, Good and Bad!
It first started back in February 2nd, 2018 https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...h-setting-distributor-in-sbc-350-hei.1095475/ when my Dad had pulled the distributor thinking that the popping in my exhaust was caused by a distributor that needed to be reset by finding TDC all over again... we tried and tried and could not get the darn thing to start. We pulled the spark plug out of cylinder #1, My Pops put his finger over the hole and had me tap the starter till he felt the compression blow out the cylinder, the Harmonic Balancer had a line marked on it that was exactly where the line should be...true TDC (verified by a piston stop some 2 months later) but at the time, it was true.
We then removed all the spark plugs, hand cranked the engine over and waited for the compression to blow out again (we were not 180 out, we verified this by watching the harmonic balancer TDC line pass us by twice, 1 full rotation of the rotor = 2 rotations of the harmonic balancer). When the TDC line was approaching the second time around and on the compression stroke, we put the Harmonic Balancer mark on TDC, pulled the Dizzy out, put it right back in and pointed the rotor to the #1 cylinder, while holding down the distributor we hand cranked the engine over while trying to mesh the rotor and watching for the dizzy to drop in the oil pump...

buttoned it all up and nothing, not even a spark...installed new spark plug wires, checked voltage to dizzy and all were good, still nothing. We verified that fuel, spark and compression were happening...still nothing (My Dad was a US Air Force mechanic and has always loved the SBC, he has built a few in his days, i remember working on cars with him as a young child). He gave up and headed back home to a neighbor island and was quite upset and defeated that he could not get it started...he was stumped.
I had 2 other friends help me too, both own Hotrods...A Chevelle and the other a Cuda, even they could not set the Dizzy...they were twisting and trying to mesh the dizzy in...try to start it a few times, gas would shoot out and a "BIG" bang popped out the carb and they said IDK what the "F" is going on ...we'll try again next week, that was the last time i seen either one.
Short story is i thought it was a bad distributor, bought a new one, advanced the Dizzy about 10* before TDC and the truck started...i was so happy. Took it for a test drive, and the popping started again...i let it sit for 2 weeks before attempting another go at it due to the frustration and not really understanding what was being taught to me from a few of you, not at all anyone's fault at describing what to do, just my ignorance and lack of knowledge was a huge crutch. Looking back at the post...it was a bit overwhelming just because of all the ways to skin a cat, but if one way didn't work, I knew I had a few more tricks in the H.A.M.B tool box. Turns out, a pushrod ball end was completely gone from under the exhaust rocker on cylinder #1. Which may have been the reason why it would not start after setting the Dizzy on TDC.
I replaced the pushrod and rocker, verified that rocker geometry was correct by coloring the valve ends with a "Dry erase" pen and putting the Rocker arms back on, hand cranking...again, I watched where the mark on the valve stems were, they were smack dab in the middle of every valve stem. I then attempted to set lash on my SBC while it was pumped down, but i was hearing from a few of you folks to set it while it is running. I tried setting them both ways and finally left the setting while the engine was running (Sounded like a sewing machine). I know that's not the way a lot of you do it, but at that time it kinda made sense to me...but what do i know...all lash was removed and a 1/2 turn was applied.

AFter setting lash, i changed out old oil and added a Zinc additive, the oil was really bad, but there were no pieces of metal in the oil...thank God!
Once i verified TDC with a piston stop, i set the TDC on the Harmonic Balancer by yes...hand cranking the motor, put all the Spark plugs and wires back ...and then dropped the dizzy in following this video to the T!

I tried to start it but it would do this Put...Put...pu...put and then whoooosh! fuel would exit the carb...i would freak out and head inside. I then listened to a few of you say you are almost there. With those words...i gave it a try again and it started. I had to run to the engine bay to advance the dizzy to get it to idle and where it stands now is at idle i set it to about 8-9* advanced and had to reset the timing screw to have it idle good. It starts now and i have it almost there i think. Waiting for my Pops tomorrow so we can do a test drive together...here is a few shots of the Dizzy being advanced...and the timing light settings advanced. I set the timing light to about 9* advanced and slowly turned the dizzy while the TDC mark was right at 9*...hooked up the vaccum port to the carb...it went up a bit, so i turned the idling screw a bit to where it sounded like a good idle....and that is where i am at, and i hope this all made sense...Hahahaha!

 

Sounds like you got it finally. Good luck on the test drive.

 

You are now the resident HAMB distributor installer. But you learned something you'll never forget.

 

and even if he never works on another engine, when future conversations turn to distributors, he will be able to say "Yeah, I installed a few in my day".

 

Nothing in the world wrong with setting the lash this way, just as shown in the video. This is absolutely correct, sorry if some guys don't like it, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a correct way to set the lash. Done correctly, as shown, you positively know that the lash is set correctly. If you did it like this, it's done. You can move on to other things and not worry about it.

 

On my current 355 build, I set the lash on the engine stand and not while running. I was going to do it again after I got it running, but saw no point and it is a mess and a half.

 

Quick question...why do you all think the previous owner has the brake booster connected to the pcv port on the carb, and the transmission vacuum modulator connected to the intake manifold port. I was watching this video where he says connect the vacuum modulator port to the driver side port on the edelbrock carb?

 

It doesn't really matter...both locations are full manifold vacuum sources...you could reverse those two connections and the result will still be the same.

 

Blues Man, my friend, I thinking, by your post here, that you never rebuilt a SBC for, say a 79 Malibu, with PS, PB, cruise, smog pump, EGR and full smog equipment. If you did , did you go back in there and re-set the valves, using the clickety clack splish splash method? If you did all that , do you still maintain that's the correct way to set the valves on a SBC?

 

Good grief man,,,
We can't even figure out why you did what you did and you told us.
How the hell are we supposed to know why the PO did what he did

Assuming it's because he did it incorrectly without understanding,,,
Just do it like its supposed to be and it will be either ok or you'll find the reason.
Lots of times it's a simple compounding of compromise that stacks up wrong and screws up everything.

 

Haha, that's not what the OP is working with. And we really don't talk about 79 Malibu's around here anyway. Besides, it's not that messy. For the stamped steel rockers there are clips that clip over the end of the rocker to block the oil hole. A valve cover with a portion of the top cut out directly over the adjusters also works well. Or even a piece of cardboard as shown in that video works. Did you see any issue with oil making a mess in that video? The bottom line is, doing the adjustment just as shown in that video is perfectly fine. Done like that the adjustment is done correctly. The OP has done that, he can cross it off his list of things he needs to worry about or redo.

 

Really? I wasn't there. Why is correct in early cars, but not in later models? Or are you saying that's how you'd do it in later models too?
I maintain it is only "correct" because there's a lot of room for error with hydraulics.

 

If I understand this correctly if you set your timing light to 9 deg. You would want the TDC mark on the balancer lined up with the 0 mark on the timing tab. If you line it up with 9 you will have 18 deg. timing . Did I mis-understand ?

 

Sorry Mark, I don't follow your question. I never said it isn't correct for later cars, I said that's not what the OP is working with, and it's not the kind of car we talk about here on this website. It doesn't matter the vintage, setting the lash on a SBC with hydraulic valves in this way is always a correct way to set them. So what if you think it's only correct with hydraulics, that's what the thread is about. BTW, I've known guys who set the lash on solid lifters with the engine running too, using a feeler gauge. I've not done it myself, but I have seen it done by experienced old school mechanics and hot rodders.

 

Who says so?
Let me spell this out .
If you ever go into an engine building shop with a dyno, who claims he builds record holding restricted engines, and you see a pair of cut down SBC valve covers hanging on the wall in the dyno room, RUN out of there, and please let me know where it is too.

"Let's check the valves one more time and make one more pull. Turn off the fan, would you?"
"But boss, it's 90 in here!"
"I know, but I can't hear the clickety clack good"

 

This wasn't done in a dyno room, it was done at a home garage. Still, that doesn't matter. With the valves set like that the engine will make as much power as with the valves set static. That is fact. Damn Mark, do you just like to argue? I didn't say it was the only way to do it, I said it was a correct way to do it. And that when done correctly the results are as good, or better, than a static lash adjustment.

 

For the record, I didn't say it was incorrect .
You did say it was correct. I disagree.
I would call it an alternative, backyard, shadetree method, if you will. I also said it would work okay ,for the o/p's purposes.
As you pointed out, it was a home garage method, which was my point.

 

Inquiring minds want to know, if the “shade tree” hydraulic lifter setting is inferior then what is the preferred method?

 

On a new or rebuilt SBC motor I set the hydraulic lifters the static way before installing intake manifold. On an already broke in, established running motor, I can go either way, static or running. For street use I have never seen a difference in 55 years of doing it this way..........................

 

^^^ Print this out and tape it up inside the lid of your tool chest. Or maybe consider it for your next tattoo.

 

Adjusting valves while engine is running is A method, yes. It's more of a teaching method, a visual live data experience of what is happening and why when done static. In this particular video, the demonstrator/teacher locks the poli locks with an incorrect procedure. Getting his Allen wrench hung and yanked out of his and damn near broke some stuff with it was a good learning experience.

I may or may not defend the method of adjustment while running depending on who's needing to know but I certainly would not defend that particular video or call it correct. I've used the adjustment while running method when diagnosis process dictates and it's usually because there is a mechanical problem and parts need to be condemned and alway with a stethoscope.

The very best way to understand valve adjustment is to take a lifter apart at least once in your life. That will get you a firm grasp on pre-load. Understanding the tread pitch on the stud and the math involved will get you a firm grasp on exactly how many thousandths of vertical adjustment motion preload are in translated into a full turn or 1/2 turn or 1/4 turn of the nut. Someone else figured it out,,, extrapolated ,,, then wrote the preload down as turns.

3/8-24 thread is 24 threads per 1 inch. Extrapolated threads into "turns".
1.000 divided by 24 extrapolated into exactly 0.0416 movement per 1 360* turn. The manual could tell you to set lifter preload at 0.030 but they extrapolated and said feel for the end of up and down motion (0.00) then go 1/2 turn (0.20) to 3/4 turn (0.30).
Swap over to 7/16 -20 thread studs and the math is different. 1.000 divided by 20 is 0.05 or 0.050 per turn. The turns don't mean shit until you know what the preload is supposed to be per lifter manufacturers (0.2 , 0.35, etc) and the thread pitch of the stud. Also equal in the don't mean shit catagory is when is quits clacking.

You can adjust till things get quiet, but that's not important at all. What is important is the preload is correct and then it's Quietly operating with all aspects of its design requirements being fulfilled. Adjustment of faulty components till they quit making noises is backwards at best.


I believe Setting the valves static is best accomplished by following the firing order and setting both valves with the Piston coming up on its compression stroke. Yes the crankshaft gets turned a few more times but doing it that way is quite beneficial and virtually eliminates possibilities of errors. In reality this is the exact condition, situation and position- compression stroke with both valves closed- that you need to be correct. For me there's nothing to discern, think about, or remember or worry about interruptions and ever loosing my place. The only drawback is moving the crank more often but actually paying attention to the way it moves has other bonuses.

 

I think you guys are getting too anal over nothing. When you build a new motor on the stand, and everything is "dry" (minus assy. lube), you have to set the valves statically, just to get it running.

But as soon as you can, after cam break-in, set the timing and do the valve adjustment while running to put the finishing touches on it.

That way the motor is warm, parts are heated to operating temperature, oil is in it's right place, right temp, and right viscosity, everything is seated in and the adjustment will be as good as it gets.

Oh! One other thing, don't bottom out the adjustment in the lifter, just go 1/4 turn in and you got it!

It's not "rocket science"!

 

with acess to the lifters, you can set the preload on Hydraulic lifters with a feeler guage and be done with it. At that point it should be, better be quiet. No need to throw another +/- 1/4 turn or 0.010 into the preload with it running.

HOWEVER !!!!
If there are noises in the valve train and throwing 0.02 around within in the measured preload is needed - it's a pretty clear indication of some kind of bullshit that needs sorted out.

Ever see when rocket scientists blow them rockets up? Usually because they got the impression backwards on a small detail. KABLOOIE

 

I have been around racing for going on 50 years. The first time I ever set valves on a motor, I did it running. What a mess. I never did it that way again. I know several big name professional engine builders. I have never seen a one of these guys run the valves on $60,000 sprint car motors with the engine running. I agree, it is a learned "feel" thing to do it statically. I also agree that dynamic setting of valves will get it right, but once you learn how to do it static you will never go back.

 

Now, that there IS rocket science!

 

As I said above, the first time I ever set valves I did it running. After that episode, (about 1966) I sat down and figured out my own process. 1843-6572. Position #6 intake valve at full lift. The #1 intake lifter will be sitting exactly centered on the base circle opposite the lobe. Set #1 intake. Rotate crank 90 degrees until #5 intake is at full lift. Set # 8 intake. Rotate 90 degrees until #7 intake is at full lift. Set #4 intake..... #2 to set #3.... #6 to set 1....etc. Then repeat same process for exhaust. It takes 4 revolutions of the crank to complete. I came up with this on my own at about 16-17 years old. Have done it this way ever since. I know it is a little anal, but I have never had a problem with it and I know my lifter is on the base circle when setting.

 

31Vicky and jaw22w. is spot on. 10 pages. Incredible.

 

Yes, They are spot on but when this all started on page one it would have been way over the OP's head to start him out with all the technical jargon. Now on page 10 he may be ready for it!

 

4drs, If you're addressing me , I'll try to answer. Not a professional, but I do know a few, and actually have built a few SBC hydraulic record holders.
Bear in mind , I'm somewhat jaded, having started out with Pontiacs. Those early lifters would pump up and hold the valves open and practically shut the engine off at about 5500. You had to take the preload out of the lifters and set them near the top of the travel. You couldn't use Chevy crimp nuts because they wouldn't work with the bottleneck studs. You had to use poly locks, which makes the whole process much easier.

So now, let's assume we're working with poly locks and / or roller rockers with set screw nuts.
I'll usually assemble all the pieces in question and then tighten whatever nuts I can until I feel a slight resistance.Then I'll turn the engine 90 deg. and do some more. After about two full rotations, you should have them all close.
If it's a stock cam, I''ll start at #1 compression, and do 1,3,4 , 8 exh. , 1,2,5,7 int , then go 360 degrees and set the rest.
On a big duration deal, I prefer to watch two adjacent cylinders at a time. Exh. opens, set the intake. Intake closing, set the exhaust. That info is all over the net, including here.
A good friend and a "pro", prefers to go through the firing order, one cylinder at a time . Of course you'll need a a fully degreed balancer for that technique.
Anyway, onto the pre-load.
I've always wiggled a stamped rocker and ball and spun the pushrod, kinda at the same time. Once you hit a SLIGHT resistance from the pushrod, the rocker won't wiggle much, and that is zero lash. That's when the noise goes away, for some of you. A half turn down from there for pre-load should be plenty. Roller rockers are substantially easier to get tightened down to zero.

A bit off topic, but when using hydraulics in a restricted class, I know some guys who prefer to set them up with a .0015 feeler gauge, cold. I 've had the retainer clips pop out , so I don't like the plunger riding against them.
I typically would set them up at zero, and then go down one flat of the nut (1/6th of a turn). It doesn't seem to hurt the rpm on a modern hydraulic. This way , it runs quiet. If the customer hears a clicking at all , he'll call you. Some guys, well you'd rather that they didn't touch anything on their own.

 

Great explanation, I expected something along those lines, but I thought maybe guys that are real competitive in the “Stock” classes might even be finicky enough to use a dial indicator to set lifter preload exactly where they want it.