I read and like the Tardel How to build Traditional Hot rods very much. Of course being an ol guy and built cars since 14, I can appreciate as well as criticize parts of the roadster build. One thing I liked was doing the 32 pedal assy instead of the 39 set in a 32 frame.(Done it 4 times). So there is a crude attempt at a mechanical drawing shown that will get you a master cylinder bracket to 32 crossmember. They supply one outside dimension for the width of 4 3/8" and nothing for the length. The instructions tell you to have the image photocopied and use as a pattern. Did that and before I committed to cutting 1/4 " stock I noted that nothing lines up with the original crossmember. Also the "backup plate" holes after photocopy is not going to be the same as the master cylinder bracket holes. The 2nd drawing is not even the same scale as the first one!!. And on and on and on. I used an architect scale to get a feel for the scale they were drawn. 1/2 is close for the cylinder plate, BUT not the backup plate. The photo copy measures 8 1/4 long. The Tardel drawing and using 1/2 scale comes in at 7 3/4. Given all of these cluster ----, I wondered if the large hole and its 3 hole mounts will even be close. Had an old M/C on the shelf and used the pattern to compare. Cluster---- again. So much for using modern computer tech to offer up a relative simple pattern that could have been drawn WITH all dimensions. Anyone try this bracket successfully and have some length, width, hole locations etc. that would be helpful? I have no idea if the cylinder will be in line with that relocated lever arm from the brake pedal.( Also a very poor description on relocating the arm.) One last thing. Page 62 of the revised addition shows the complete bracket with cylinder attached but also a triangle plate with hole laying there. Wats that for? Wat a book.
I don't have the book in front of me but I think the intent is to measure the 4 3/8" dimension on the drawing, figure out what percentage of full scale it is, then print the drawing at that percentage to make it the correct scale. Or maybe I'm confusing that with the guitar stuff I used to print out...
These books have been around for a long time. Thousands of people have built their cars with the aid of these books. It is a bout as concise a guide as you can get. Did you try this contact, 464 Pleasant Ave, Santa Rosa, CA 95403, USA. sales@verntardell I don't know anybody there, but I have the complete set of books. This is rather scathing execution of a man's name and I think this thread should be deleted. Warren
If you can't make the bracket, even from a sketch on a napkin, you aren't an accomplished hot rodder. We don't need a CAD file to be able to cut, bend, drill and weld up a simple bracket. Use your straight edge, ruler, maybe a compass, and a fine point Sharpie marker to draw your own pattern on the steel. Then cut it up. (Confession: I never trust anyone else's measurements anyway. I always confirm them on my own before I commit any steel to harm.)
I have the book. I will confess to being a lifelong CAD Jockey, who has never trusted anything that told me to "make a copy" and then just use it as a pattern. Trust, and then verify a whole bunch. The pictorial representation in the book should get you a long way towards what you need to do, and a good set of drafting instruments (straightedge and compass) should get you the rest of the way there. At least that is my approach. In any event, we all go at these things differently, and building hot rods is not for the meek!
The book as books go lacks perfection. Verne is not a publisher he is a mechanic and a damned good one at that. He is not a writer by trade and I am not sure that Mr Bishop is either. That said, it is a damned good book and has launched many a building young and old into the hobby with enough good info to build a car. We all do things differently. I don't like the same steering box for example as Mr Tardel. I am also a valve in head guy as opposed to a flathead guy. But Verne knows his shit and the way he does things works for him. I hope he outlives me I have been building a long time but the world won't notice when I am gone and loosing him will be a great loss.
Actually the print shop did all of the scaling up. With that said and again Nostrebor said, don`t trust the measurements of "make a copy". I like the book but with all of them, there will be errors. Yes the editing is whats wrong with Vern`s book. Editing should include details and pictures. Those of you on social security should without a doubt remember " The Complete Book of Engine Swapping" by one of the greats, Leroi Tex Smith. Alchemy this is exactly why the cut measure bend etc was very much in Tex`s book with great pictures and editing. Sorry you missed in the first post that I used the architect scale to scale the pics and found them way off which translates to the photocopy!!!! Anyway Tex`s book is copyrighted 1970 and I continue to use those ideas even today just as Vern is using Tex`s ideas. Very sorry if you don`t have the book. Pick one up. You will see what editing is about. So far no one wants to admit to using the plate design and know what the triangle plate is? I am afraid of the master cylinder alignment to the altered brake pedal lever.
Teenagers in 1950 were building the same cars with out much in put beyond the 22 year old down the street who did one.Figuring it out is half the battle,and fun.
100% Irish . My attempt here was to save someone, maybe a newbe, from taking those plans and only finding out after they cut up the material that they will not fit.
Vern is a Ruler and Book is a guide to building a AV8 and remember Measure twice cut once . I am with the others and as a tool and die maker make my own measurements . Nobody is perfect and worked with great engineers and designers that made errors on blueprints.
A hotrodder is the personification of "I've got a better idea and I think I can fabricate it." Tardel just shows you decades of experience in a few pages.
A friend loaned me the book. I read it and decided to build a roadster. For me the book was used for inspiration and ideas along with the HAMB. I made my own measurements and used the books ideas as a guide. I am glad that the book came to me. John
I think you did the right thing in pointing out that the pattern was not accurate and it may save others a lot of work. You didn't publish an incorrect pattern, you only made it known. While Tardel is well known and respected, he did make a mistake. Not sure how many of these books he sells, but if he knows the info is not correct, he could get xerox copies of a correct pattern and insert them in the books he sells. I've seen that done before. I think you did the right thing by pointing it out.........and maybe saving someone a lot of unnecessary work. Metal ain't cheap these days.
I've got both of his books on how to build a hot rod Model A on the shelf behind me and see them as guides and not gospel. If you work on old cars long enough and it doesn't matter what brand or what model you find that there are discrepencies from the drawings on these rigs. A lot of the time with stamped things like frame rails, that may be due to a slight difference in the dies in the press or what number your rails were in the number of rails stamped in that press. You take the measurements from the drawing in the book and measure your parts and figure it out before you cut. One thing that I have found an proven to myself is that all tape measures are not created equal even with top name brands. That 30 ft framing tape out of dad's or Granddads old tool box is nice but the end was designed to hook on a nail stuck in a 2x6 it wasn't designed to go over the square edge of a piece of metal and construction workers very often "burn a foot" meaning take a more precise measurement from the 12 inch mark than not. Get a high quality tape measure to use on the chassis and do not use any other tape measure. For precise measurements that involve something like fitting the pieces from the Tardel patterns, Use far more precise measuring tools from the get go.
Ouch. Mike Bishop is an amazing writer, and it was his life's profession. One of his jobs early on was working on instructional manuals in the aircraft industry. I'm not sure any book is perfect... so, they all "lack perfection" So, what's your point? I remember way-back-when that there were some revisions. I want to say one was with the front engine mount and use of the '34 wish bone arrangement. The number of cars Vern has built and worked on is staggering. Also, they wrote the book as they built Mike's Av8 roadster. My brother Matt and I built the chassis for his Av8 roadster using Mike's Book and Vern's crossmember, and it went really well. We actually did it in a week and documented it for a magazine in which Steve Hendrickson wrote the article. So I can speak from experience that the book is a good one, and has acted as a driving force for traditional hot rodding in the beginning of this new era of traditional hot rods. This comment isn't directed towards anyone in particular, but I agree with alchemy. I'd also go as far as saying it's funny to hear from people who never show examples of stuff they've built, or are building, yet have something to say about what others have done. Typical internet hot rodders. Sam
Sam A fellow Hamb member turned me onto Vern’s new book and not sure how old it is. He was asking me about a gas pedal setup and shared a picture out of his how to build a hotrod your model A book. I never seen that in my Bishop book and needed more info. It’s a new book that was published. Plus you never have enough books so I got one. The new book has more great information. A great technique for doing the gas pedal and more . I have always felt no matter how basic or technical a book or manual is you can always learn from it. The best part about the books you don’t even have to read it’s got great pictures
Sounds like, while the original drawings may have been to scale, or close to it, the process of printing may have rendered the “patterns” less than useful, especially if there have been multiple printings on different equipment. Basically, reproduction brings on errors, much like the “telephone” game we played back in the sixties when I was a kid.
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