Projects Not worth saving... 1928 Model A Roadster AV8 Hotrod (build thread!?)

Ok, so after beating myself up for three days on how to make these 100 year old parts fit with my reproduction parts from two different vendors, based on coordinates found from two different internet sources, I decided to just start assembling this thing, and let the parts determine where they’re going to end up (within reason). I’m using the jig to keep everything centered, and whaddaya know, I’m making progress now.

After a bunch of back and forth, and a really rough mock-up of the whole cowl, I decided to place the cowl posts first, and go from there...



After the cowl posts were placed, center verified, and holes drilled. I decided to lock the subrails and cowl posts down to the table...and then I started putting all of the pieces together.



At first it seems like nothing is going to fit. But a little patience, a lot of clamps, and a little bit of creativity (like using long bolts and big washers to suck parts together gradually), and slowly it all starts to come together.



And there is the cowl, rough assembled. I need to remove it now, as a complete unit, and flip it on it’s nose to access a couple more spots where I need to drill holes. I also need to slice one of the cowl feet (subrail extensions), and taper it in a little bit where the cowl meets the firewall.



Once that’s all done, I’ll blow it all apart and prime everything prior to final assembly. The next time the cowl goes together, it will be the final time, with rivets and lock nuts, where it will join the subrails permanently. And my plan is to then mount the doors, so that their location can determine where the quarter panels go.

Stay tuned!

 

I hesitate to even ask, but since you asked before, did the subrail assembly fit the frame?
EDIT: Forgot you showed the stepped frame already, so I guess it wouldn't be a drop-on fitting.

The various parts being made to play nice together sure looks good!

 

Looks good.

 

So, I’m going to be able to hit all of the mounts rearward of the cowl mounting brackets (which were welded on in the wrong spot on my frame). Well...all of them except for the rear crossmember mount, which I am going to have to improvise, due to the rear frame step. I also ordered repro cowl mount brackets, and will weld them into place after the final body location is determined. And the front mount holes are going to just land where they land (I’ll likely weld up and re-drill them).

And thank you! If I had it to do over again, I would have welded up the rivet holes on the original panels, and re-drilled them to fit the new pieces. Painstakingly removing the rivets, and then trying to make the holes in my new panels “match up” has led to a lot of the confusion, and made the “fitting up” much more difficult than it needed to be.

As for plotting out the body mount holes, I asked a well known builder on the HAMB what technique he was using to make everything fit up nicely, and he said that he always buys the full subframe assembly when he replaces subrails. Smart fella!

 

Last little bit of metal work before the rest of the cowl gets a coat of primer and assembled for the final time.





I think a lot of folks might have just left these cowl posts as-is, but I think those little rear tabs that some jerk torched off of these posts probably actually add a lot of strength to the body; recreating them will no doubt help to keep the doors closing properly, so I thought it was worth the time spent.



So that it would be strong, I drilled a hole and broke a 90° angle in a little piece of strap. I gradually shaped my little tab to fit both the lower body line and the angle of the subrail.





Once my little tab was tacked into place, I drilled through the subrail, just large enough to tap it out to 5/16”-18. As with the front mount, I plan to use a 5/16” button head allen bolt, and then lock it in place with a mechanical interference nut on the backside. I know a rivet would make a stronger fitment, but I don’t think a 5/16” rivet is as easy to install as the 3/16” subrail rivets...I just didn’t want to mess with it.







Once I pulled the cowl posts off of the table, I fully welded my tabs, from the inside as well as the outside, and then blended everything in. I went ahead and welded up some rust holes, and even built up some weld and then metal-finished where the body line was dented, since I couldn’t get a hammer behind it.

What do you think? Not too shabby, I say.

 

So, let me start this weeks update off by telling you all about the splitting headache I have right now. I mean, 54 rivets might not seem like a lot, but sinking them all has rattled my brains. Luckily, there aren’t but a handful more required to finish this project. And on that note, I’m ready for a beer!



There’s something pretty cool about building a car “the old way”. In the beginning I bucked the subrail rivets by clamping my bucking bar in a vice and moving it around my “body jig” on a little welding table I have. To be honest, this method was more trouble than it’s worth, and I had to redo several of the rivets done this way because my table would move, or the bar would slip in the vice. In the end, it was easier to just “man-up”, and hold onto the bar in one hand and hold the air hammer with the other.



After all the subrail rivets were done, I applied a bit more primer, and then it was time to attach the cowl posts and belt rail.



Clekos to hold it in place. 5/16-18 button head allen bolts and mechanical lock nuts replace the outer rivets on this piece, and then 3/16” brazier head rivets to attach it to the subrails. This thing’s really starting to feel substantial...



After the subrail was fully assembled, it was time to assemble the subrail extensions to the lower firewall for the final time. I started by securing the lower half of the subrail extension to the lower portion of the firewall...



And then I laid the upper half in place, and riveted it to the firewall. Once I had both halves of the subrail extensions riveted to the firewall, I was able to manipulate them together and send home the four rivets that make the extensions into one piece.



Now to paint the cowl sides, so that I can finish the final assembly on the cowl.



It’s pretty cool that this stuff is all going together for the final time. I mean, I’ll still have to do some mock-up up on the back half, and then blow it all back apart again before it goes together final-final, but once the front half of the car goes together it will stay together.

So, stay tuned!

 

Great job man, that's a lot to figure out and get the measurements right. Love the way this is coming together.

 

Thanks Aaron! I’m very stoked on the feedback. In all honesty, what I’m learning is, to a certain extent anyway, that the measurements kind of are what they are. It’s all “close”, and it’s “mostly” symmetrical...enough so that nobody will be able to tell otherwise with the naked eye. But I spent months trying to lay this thing out “perfectly”, and then I decided to just try and get it “close”, and when it was close, it started coming together.

 

going to be a nice body at your going rate... keep it coming ... great pix...

 

Thanks Sloppy Jalopies! I’m glad a decided to spend the time and do this car right. It would have been pretty fun all ratty, but I’m glad it’s going to become something better.

Thank You!

 

I posted about this over on the Ford Barn, since that’s where all the “resto” type folks congregate, but I wonder if anybody following this thread has any input.

I ordered gas tank “anti-squeak” welt from Mike’s A-Fordable, and this is what I got:



This stuff doesn’t look right to me, and I fear it will just act as a giant rust magnet. What do you all use between the tank and the cowl/firewall on a Model A build?

 

good build, will follow

 

Is there even somthing called "Gastank anti-squeak welt"? to me that looks like the anti- squeak welt that is supposed to go between the runningboards and runningboard brackets.
The gastank welt looks like a thinner version of the fenderwelt.

 

Thank you.

Yes, I suppose there is. Your question prompted me to do a quick Google and it seems that ALL of the big classic Ford vendors sell a similar looking product specifically called “Gas Tank Anti-Squeak Welt”. On a 28-29, this is supposed to be used at the firewall and on top of the cowl sides. Bratton’s welting is darker in color and seems to be coated with something. Supposedly this stuff is coated (waxed?), too. Yet, when you go on the Ford Barn, the consensus over there seems to be that the original stuff was more like friction tape. And then there’s even a handful of folks who are using rubber (not vinyl) electrical tape. Hmmmm...

 

I don't know if it's right or not, but that's what I used on my Coupe.

 

Ok I see, when I reasently pulled off the gastank off my 31 coupe I found between the firewall and tank a black thin welt very similar to that tartape we used on hockeysticks in the old days.

 

So, again, I’m only really getting to spend about an hour a night on this thing, if I’m lucky, during the week. And then usually (hopefully) the bulk of the days over the weekend. I’m neglecting ALL of my other chores right now...

So, that being said, this week’s focus was on replacing the upper firewall section on my gas tank.



The previous owner had welded in (quite poorly) a replacement at some point, that had two large (poorly done) patch panels. It just had to go.



And once it was gone, I cleaned up the rail on the under side of the tank where my new (old) upper firewall would attach.



And once I got that part looking decent, I laid out where my spot welds were going to land, and, I think quite cleverly, used an old 45 shell to cut several little masking tape circles, to prime every bit of that rail that wasn’t going to receive a spot weld.



Yes I have heard of weld-through primer. I even had some. But this plan seemed to work out well. Time to weld in the upper firewall.



And now I could focus my attention back towards assembling the cowl. After the feedback I received from you folks, I decided to use rubber electrical tape, though I’m not sure I can recommend it.



It’s kind of a pain in the butt to work with, and because it sticks to itself, trying to trim away any little bit that squishes out is an absolute nightmare. But oh well. It’s in there now.



And there you have it. A complete, and final assembled cowl!



As you can see, I decided to see what the instrument cluster would look like mounted. Which then led me to hang some more parts on the car.



Consider yourselves “teased”.

The next order of business, I guess, is to figure out what sort of inner door gap I need. Because right now the rear quarters are just kind of hanging out in space...this next part is gonna get interesting...

 

nice work, looking forward to seeing it done

 

That came out great. Looks brand new.

 

Thanks Marc! You and me both. What I can’t wait to do is start the paint job. I’ve got something pretty fun planned out.

Thanks Aaron, I’m pretty stoked on how it’s coming together.

 

I figured I’d give you all a rare mid-week update. Just because these Brookville quarters are so damn sexy!



I’ve always felt like the 28/29 was just a more voluptuous car. Sorry...can I even say the word “voluptuous” in 2021!?



Jim & AJ at Chattin Chassis took pretty good care of me on the replacement sheet metal. They also saved me a cool thousand bucks over Brookville’s prices direct (half of that was on shipping, which Brookville just absolutely kills you on). The transaction wasn’t without a couple of hiccups, but Jim & AJ stood behind the products they sold me, and they made everything right. I would certainly use them again.

Since the back half of this car is going to wind up being 90% new metal, I know that some of you will inevitably feel like I cheated. But I think I’m also successfully showing you the level of quality that I am striving for with this build, and those old quarters were just never going to get there...









...well, not with MY skillset, anyway.

The good news is, they went on to make another HAMB’ers Sport-Coupester project look a little bit more like a real roadster. So...I feel pretty “ok” about all of it. Hopefully you do as well.

 

Sadly there’s no manual for assembling a 100 year old car body from reconditioned and replacement parts. Most of this build so far has really just been my “best guess”, followed with trying to do things in an order that ensures I don’t have to “undo” anything later in the build. So far, I think I’ve probably been more lucky than good.







Mocking up the quarter panels was done by setting what “seemed like” an appropriate door gap, and then assuring that both door openings measured the same width top and bottom. I feel that fine tuning can be done with the door itself, later in the build. I hope I’m right about that.



All of this was done so that I could find the rear axle center line on my body “jig”. Since my cowl pillars already had holes in them, since they weren’t in the exact right place, and since those mounts are separate from the frame anyway, I decided to base ALL of my other body mounting holes off of the rear axle center line. You can imaging my pleasure when I discovered that ALL of the other holes fell exactly where they should on the subrail cross braces.

Nice!



Once the quarter panels were in their proper spot, I could fine tune the quarter panel front mounting brackets, and drill them with holes for spot welds, and rivets. They won’t get welded in until after the quarters are primed. I’m going to use my shell casing masking tape trick again, and prime behind them for extra rust prevention.



Once the quarters came back off for primer, I could tackle one last chore on the subrails themselves. I need to notch the rails for the frame’s rear step. I was going to wait until the body was ready to set on the chassis to do this part; I hate plotting cuts based on measuring something that’s “way the hell over there”. I don’t trust myself, exactly. So I only had one beer before I finished this part...



Once the cuts were made, templates for the reinforcement plates where trimmed to fit, and then transferred to metal.



And then the metal was welded in, and finished back. Don’t fret, the subrails were clamped firmly to the table before the reinforcement panels were welded in place.



Not my best work; there was POR-15 on the under side of the subrails, and it made the welds come out a little dirty, but it should be plenty strong for what it needs to do.

So, that’s all for this week. Next week the quarters are getting primed and the reinstalled for the final time.

That should be exciting! Stay tuned...

 

Nice job, as usual.

 

Thanks Aaron! I appreciate it.

 

Well, I skipped a week. Nobody called me out on it, but it’s kind of like when you screw something up on your car, and nobody will ever see it, but YOU know it’s there. Anyway...



The big chore this week was fitting the extruded “T” molding to the quarters. It was my first time using a shrinker/stretcher, and the super-econo version I purchased from Harbor Freight actually wasn’t completely awful. Without more experience in this department, I feel that I am unable to give a better critique of the tool, but where I struggled was with the amount of force required to get the metal to move, and then it moves a whole bunch. I definitely probably started to work-harden these pieces, though I found that I could re-anneal them and keep going. Eventually I got them to fit properly.



And then it was time to get some primer on these quarter panels! I’m not a body guy, but I DA’d everything with 220, and hand sanded where the DA wouldn’t go. And, oooo, look...SHINY!



SEM acid etch primer has been my go-to base coat, followed by good old Rust-o-Leum “Professional” Red-Ox primer. Say what you will, but I’ve actually painted a few cars with this stuff, and it’s held up quite well. Though Rust-o-Leum should probably sponsor me. They don’t...I wish they did.



Once the primer had 24 hours to harden up, the quarter panels were reattached to the sub rails. They went right back on like they were supposed to. Gotta love test-fitting panels.



I screwed up and forgot to order special countersunk head pop rivets to attach the “T” molding to the quarter panels. So, for now, Clekos and machine screws will have to suffice. The whole point here is so that I can get the trim in place while I drill the holes for my adjoining panels.



I went with the “panel below decklid” first. After it was mocked up with clamps, I marked the holes, and drilled them out. And then it was time to lay the “panel above decklid” in place.



Fitting that sucker is just a giant series of compromises. So I guess I should back up...



I really should have taken better “in process” pics of the panel above decklid as I was working on it. It was pretty trashed; a couple of large tears, rust through, and plenty of excess holes that needed filling. While not “perfect without filler” like some of the folks here on the HAMB can get panels, I’m fairly impressed with what I was able to accomplish. And it’ll probably get a little bit of body filler later on down the road.



Consequently, and, this is only a theory, but I don’t think that Brookville makes the upper body line exactly the same way that Ford did. I think they probably figure that somebody who’s gonna spend the nearly two grand that a pair of their quarter panels sets you back will probably swing the extra hundred bucks to replace the “panel above decklid” too. Well...I didn’t do that. And so, it just isn’t going to look perfect. This is me telling myself that I am ok with that.



And there you have it! It’s starting to look like a ‘29 Model A Roadster. The next step is to drill out the quarters to final attach the “panel above decklid”, and then go back and start finalizing all of the quarter panel braces. Hopefully you will get a timely update next week. Stay tuned...

 

Your Roadster is looking better and better every update. It's coming out super nice. Great job.

 

Casey...When you first started this thread, your humble attitude bespoke of 'very little experience' in early sheet metal. (you did expound upon working in a performance shop, but didn't really elaborate)
Great Guns, you lit off like an ICBM, went thru the WORST stuff to work with, (the second shot of your sub frame rails...Agggh!!!)

Holy Crow! You went into detail about the questions I've asked a few times...Your table was practical and applicable, I was real impressed.
As it sits now, it's a professional example. (Love the primer everywhere to prevent future rust)
The sheet metal, firewall, tank, and all the work around the cowling feet, all add up to perfection.
Made me get stuff moved in my shop, so I can do some more 'patchwork' on my T Touring.
This is a great thread. I recommend it. Thank you.

 

Crazycasey,

Excellent work and very detailed pictures. Very helpful to those that will follow and are looking for reference material.

Can't wait to see it finished up.

Brian B

 

Great work Casey