Hello again: I thought I better start a new thread now that the heads are on. I did get more info about the heads. They were planed, new valve seals, 8 new exhaust valves, 2 new intake valves, the seats were ground and he lapped the valves and checked the valve spring pressure. Also I am told by Bill that I have domed (pop-up) pistons that are 5 over (whatever that is). Oh and my heads are from a 260. I ground off the underside of my headers a bit so I can get at my spark plugs easier. I had the headers off anyway so it wasn't hard. Then I touched them up with paint also and reinstalled them with gaskets. There were no header gaskets when I removed them but there was a small piece of one. Anyway, I got to put the rocker arms back on and tightened down correctly after checking that the small hole was clear in the rocker arm. It was interesting to see the order of tightening the rocker arms. We made sure everything was clean (pristine) before we began. It was great to have a little better understanding but still so far to go. I will try to attach photos. - I got one photo but the other isn't showing up. Sorry h a photo or two but once we got into it, I was too busy to take many photographs. Once we got the rockers back on, it was a challenge to turn the small wheel at the front to TDC because of the compression but we took turns. What a great way to spend an afternoon !
I'm not a Ford guy, but those dont look like pedestal mount to me. Also, I'm not sure I understand you "tightened them down" Not from the pics you have shown. Now if adjustable rockers, you cannot just bolt on, and "tighten them down" possible with pedestal arms.
Budget, If I read it properly, he set lash (adjusted). "It was interesting to see the order of tightening the rocker arms." Cuddles, if that was done after installing the heads and torquing them down properly, you are golden. There are a couple different ways to do this. 1. basic, stock, flat-rate way, adjust each cylinder's valves with that cylinder at TDC. This will be 'good enough' for low lift and duration cams. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xM1v1HZ2Wg 2. when the lobe is truly on base circle, this is used when you want it perfect and/or have a big cam. http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/valve-adjusting-order-ford-260-289-302.html "5 over" pistons. This means that the original size pistons were replaced with a piston that measures five thousandths of an inch (0.005") bigger diameter. This is a very small increment over, so the bore of the cylinder needed very little overbore to clean it up. typically, 20, 30, 40 and some cases 60 over are more common. Each of these are expressed in thousandths of an inch. Here is a SBF piston with a bit of a pop-up. It could have a larger dome, be flat with the valve notches, or even a dished area, lower than the top edge. www.speedwaymotors.com/KB-Ford-302-Hypereutectic-Pistons-200-Dome-509-Rod,28167.html Notice there is a drop-down menu on he right side for oversize. If you go to the bottom of the page, the other piston types are shown. 260 heads means that they are probably HAMB friendly (pre '65) and don't have later improvements to flow and don't have later smog modifications that often are worse. www.diyford.com/ford-cylinder-heads-valvetrain-interchange-small-block/ Dry fit the intake before you have all the gaskets and sealer laid down. It's kind of clumsy the first few times, and a practice run will increase chances for success.
"Once we got the rockers back on, it was a challenge to turn the small wheel at the front to TDC because of the compression but we took turns". Or you could just remove all the spark plugs so you wouldn't be fighting the compression I am praying you had the spark plugs in it at that point and the cause of the tight engine isn't a shop rag left in a bore
I will try to answer all. I don't know if Bill put the plugs in or not. I didn't notice but they must have been because there was compression and no rags were left inside. I will dry fit the intake first. I made some studs and that really helped last time when I did it. Yes, Bill mentioned that these heads were 64. Yes we adjusted the rocker arm nuts after the heads were mounted on the block. We went down one side of exhaust nuts and down the intake nuts and then did the other side of the block. Bill taught me to roll the push rod between finger & thumb as I tighten the nut until the push rod meets resistance. Then I tighten the nut one half turn of the ratchet. Bill usually works on Chevys a lot & couldn't remember the amount of extra turn required for a Ford so he decided to go with one half turn. He said if it rattles a bit, we'd go another quarter turn. We did crank the motor to TDC once and later we turn it by hand, I think for the other side ? I forget. There is a lot to remember. I will have to look up "pedestal mount" to see what that is. We tightened the nuts down after the heads were on the block. I think the photos are on my workmate. I'll try and add a photo of the pistons. Thank you everyone.
Redo the rocker arm adjustment. It sounds like you have the technique down, but the lifters/pushrods/rockers may not have been on the base circle. See the previous post. Having them loose (adjusted when on the lobe, not on the base) will be noisy and run poorly, but can be redone. Having them tight could cause a valve to hit the piston. This isn't likely, but recheck to make sure no damage happens. The pistons in the pics have a bit of a bump. Compression is altered by 1. piston shape 2. piston height 3. gasket thickness 4. combustion chamber in the head 5. stroke. So just knowing one or two of these won't get you an accurate number. Provided the heads weren't surfaced too much, (0.010-0.040" is typical), and these parts were together before without issue, it should be fine. Pedestal mount is described in the head/valvetrain article I linked. "hard to turn" - when the engine is ***embled, various components will start to operate, the more you add. Just turning the crank requires little effort. Adding the timing chain and cam will add very little. Adding pistons and rings increases the drag. bolting on the heads will create compresion, forcing air out of the spark plug holes. Adding pushrods and rockers will cause the valve springs to be compressed, causing more effort and as you adjust,and will cause the engine to want to find a spot where the valves/springs are less open, sometimes increasing effort and even 'rolling backward'.
It would be interesting to run a dial bore gauge in this fella's block , just to understand why a .005 over piston was used . I would also caution the OP to be very aware of his timing settings & octane rating ( dome pistons & now milled heads ) can be a recipe for detonation .
A little info on the installation of a larger diameter piston. As a cylinder wears from the piston/rings sliding up and down, it will not wear perfectly round. Some people use what is called a ball hone to create a new crosshatch pattern on the existing cylinder wall. It is a springy thingy with little abrasive balls on it. You run it up and down while turning it with a drill. The way that it is made allows it to follow the existing worn cylinder wall. Doing that and putting new rings in place will often give an engine a new lease on life for a reasonable length of time. This type of hone is NOT used for RESIZING the cylinder. Another type of hone is one with adjustable size and can be used to simply put a new crosshatch pattern in place or to actually SIZE or RESIZE a bore. If someone wants to put a .005 oversize piston in an engine, they would use this type of hone. This type of hone is also used after an engine has been bored to accept a larger piston. After boring, the cylinder is brought to its finished size with a hone like this. The thing to understand is that you do not bore an engine first when only enlarging the bore a small amount like .005 (5 thousandths). There isn't sufficient metal being removed to use a boring machine. So its simply brought to size with a hone. If you are removing more than say .010 (10 thousandths), then you bore it close to finish size and then hone it to the final size.
Since this was just a 'top end' refresh, and the heads are back on, I doubt he's going to check the bore, but good point. We don't have the engine's history, and he didn't go through the bottom end, so why a '5 over' set of pistons was installed is just a guess. I'm not deep into Ford motors, so I don't know why small valve 260 heads found their way into this build either. It would be nice to have everything do***ented, but it ran before, pulled the car before and just had worn/burnt valves. Cuddles wants it back together for the summer and it should be fine. It may need a bit of tuning, but this kind of valve job was common back then. If it was going into a '64 F250 tow rig, I'd be more cautious. This application shouldn't strain it's limits. C4OE on the head does indicate a 260 head.
Like Budget36, I'm not a "Ford guy" either, but from what I understand, the 260 has some SMALL combustion chambers, and with domed pistons, your compression ratio may be a bit high, especially for the street. You didt't say which block they were being put on. If the engine has more stroke than a 260, that would also add to the CR. Maybe a "real" Ford guy can step in here. The "small wheel on the front" is what's formally called the vibration dampener, although most guys just call them "balancers". I sure hope you're adjusting your valves by the book, or you helper has some knowledge about the procedure. It looks like your machinist did a nice job on the heads. Good luck with your project. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
Butch, he said it's a '66 289 in his first post in Removing Heads thread. Looking at the Ford head article I posted, the 260 and 289 heads had the same chamber volume (55CC) and valvetrain until May of 66. Sounds like this was a decent replacement head, especially if you had thermactor heads before. www.diyford.com/ford-cylinder-heads-valvetrain-interchange-small-block/ I hope a True Blue Oval guy can look over the pics and chime in.
Quote: "Yes we adjusted the rocker arm nuts after the heads were mounted on the block. We went down one side of exhaust nuts and down the intake nuts and then did the other side of the block. Bill taught me to roll the push rod between finger & thumb as I tighten the nut until the push rod meets resistance. Then I tighten the nut one half turn of the ratchet. Bill usually works on Chevys a lot & couldn't remember the amount of extra turn required for a Ford so he decided to go with one half turn. He said if it rattles a bit, we'd go another quarter turn". No known history on a '66 289 with domed pistons and different heads ... did anyone verify the lifters are hydraulic? Also, with Bill being a Chevy guy, I hope he got the head gaskets on correctly ... as has been mentioned in your other thread, it does matter on a Ford.
^^^This is a little confusing^^^. Are you saying you adjusted ALL the valves at once, with the engine in the same "position"? Each cylinder has to have the valves adjusted in an ORDER, and the engine is rolled over to bring different cylinders "in" so they can each be adjusted. Like I said previously, I'm not a Ford guy, but they can't be that much different than the Chevrolet's I'm used too, other than the firing order. I'm thinking we'll be seeing a thread asking about how to correctly adjust SBF valves in the very near future. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
That’s what I was thing as well. But, the pics of the pistons in the bore bring up some concerns as well, that I hope were addressed, the pics look like rust forming on the deck, and one piston looks like it has rust as well with a build up of it. I hope it’s just the view I see on my phone.
I found that confusing as well but since Bill is apparently a Chevy guy and those aren't shaft mounted rockers like a 340 Mopar for example, there is no way (or at least I can't imagine) Bill adjusted the rockers without verifying each piston was in the correct spot for each valve adjustment. The fact the engine was tight after adjusting all the rockers (***uming they were done correctly) may have just been the effort needed to open and close all the correctly adjusted valves (overcoming valve spring pressure on all 8 cylinders) and has nothing to do with compression. I just can't imagine installing the spark plugs before adjusting the valves, it just doesn't make sense. I believe a good part of the story is missing due to the inexperience of the poster (which is fine ... I am pretty sure we were all there at some point in the past). Here's something else I just found. Quote: "289 271 HP ( High Performance ) had factory solid lifter cam". So, if the OP has a factory HiPo 289, he could still have a solid cam in it. If that's the case, those valves are not adjusted correctly. I sure hope going half a turn with solids (if they are) and domed pistons didn't cause any problems.
Although Bill builds very fast Chev race engines, he is a very competent mechanic. I haven't talked to them today, but I am sure they brought each cylinder to TDC for setting the valves. Cuddles (Jim) is a very talented person especially working with metal. Although he is relatively new to the hot rodding game, his research before each job is thorough as seen in his inquiries here. I wanted to be there to also help him, but unfortunately live a fair distance away and we are in Covid lock down. I have no doubt this car will be on the street very soon. Also, the burnt valve was in # 8 cylinder. This is not the first time friends running 289 Fords have encountered hot spot problems around #8. I don't think he posted a before picture of the head, but that valve was seriously injured. Warren
So we can ***ume that Bill popped a lifter out and verified they were hydraulic then ... good to know. I guess we can also ***ume the head gaskets went on correctly too ... wonderful to know he is in good hands. I wish him the best and look forward to the running/driving video
It looks like there might be some sun today so I will tackle the intake manifold install. To address concerns, I recall that I put the plugs in AFTER Bill left in order to close things up. It's been really damp here lately. I put the headers back on too. The wheel is a balancer. I know I've been told that but I keep forgetting. Thank you. I will ask Bill about hydraulic or solid lifters but I'm sure he knows. I am "very talented" ? Hmm ? Not too sure about that one. But I sure do try. Two items of interest generally. 1. - I am very grateful to Bill for showing me the ropes but I feel bad also. Bill earns his living as a mechanic / technician so as I watched him (when I had the opportunities), I noticed he worked fast and couldn't approach the task as I do, enjoying the moment or so it seemed. Bill seemed anxious to get the job done not because he hated it but because of years working by the clock. I know he loves working on old motors, but he even said that it has become so routine, he hardly has to think about the task at hand. To watch him work is expertise in motion but still, it seems a shame to plow through the moments when the build is half the fun. 2. - It seems like so many here are Chevy people. I pretty much happened on both of my Fords ( I recently acquired a 42 pickup thanks to Warren & his world of connections). But it has me wondering, where are all the Ford people ? Does no one buy Ford ? (OK, here comes all the jokes) Let them fly guys ! I was just curious. Even the better videos online show how to do this or that - with a Chev - and then they go on to say that it is similar with a Ford except for blah, blah, blah. What happened that makes Chevy so popular ? Just asking. Or is this a taboo question ? I don't want to ruffle feathers. Thank you everyone.
To put the expertise question in perspective; you learned to walk in your childhood. You don't derive joy from it now most of the time, but if you just take a walk to enjoy the experience and getting to your destination, you can enjoy the learned ability. You can also derive joy from teaching someone else to walk. To answer the Chevy question with a Mopar perspective... 1. If you look at the history of hot rods, the flathead Ford was THE performance engine for what we now call hot rodders from introduction in the 30s to the late 40s to mid 50s due to a big step up in stock HP, reasonable cost, huge numbers (market share), ability to increase performance over stock, and that the early speed equipment focused on it due to the other factors mentioned. This meant that other brand vehicles weren't as popular and numerous as the basis to build a hot rod (for example, Mopars were ahead in more solid bodies and hydraulic brakes, but the engines were less powerful and harder to hop up. Mopars were basic transportation or 'old man's cars' in the opinion of those hot rodders). 2. When overhead valve V8 engines were beginning to be offered after WW2, the first to be adapted as a hot engine was the Olds. It (and a few others) held on until the SBC came out in 55. The SBC grew in popularity due to many of the factors mentioned in point 1 (fairly cheap, m*** production, high HP to start AND easily upgraded) and due to a couple other factors. The first was very strong factory (GM) support for performance upgrades, the second was it's size being a good fit for the average guy to swap it into that old Ford body/ch***is. Example, the Hemi had equal or more power, but were fewer, more expensive and bigger, which meant harder to fit. The Ford OHV engines of the 50s had the same disadvantages. The engine you are working on (SBF) didn't come out until the 60s, and by that time the SBC had everything mentioned in point 1 plus the SBF was less HP and is too long to fit easily in those old Fords. There were also other types of cars to compete for attention of performance minded car guys by this time (the 50s HP factory offerings, sports cars, and the start of muscle cars). This is a broad, simple overview, but that's why the SBC is the most popular engine for American car hobbyists. TL/DR; If you want more power, you pick cheap and easy because you have limited resources.
The "wheel" thingie. Remembering just a name or word works better if you understand what its purpose is. The "wheel" is called a "balancer" or more corectly a "Harmonic Balancer". When an engine is running the forces of combustion and moving the metal parts up/down/around inside the engine create vibration. The multiple components each create their own little vibration due to different metal compositions and different speeds and direction changes. As the combustion forces act on the pistons and rods, the crankshaft actually twists slightly from end to end .......then it untwists and retwists....again and again. If two different components have the same vibration speed, they can cause each others vibration to increase. If they increase too much, they will destroy the engine. To prevent this, OEMs test their engines and find where this problem is the worst. Then they make the little wheel with a rubber (elastomer) band located between the mounting hub and an outer ring. The specific elastomer they choose is chosen because it works well at the rpm where that companys engine has it worst vibrations. As the crank twists back and forth, the wheel (harmonic damper) depletes the vibration in the rubber and keeps it from getting stronger. After market companies make a variation that contains rubber pellets or a viscous fluid inside and they work for most all rpms. If you change the internal components in an engine, the OEM damper may not work properly, so people buy ones that work at any rpm. Some engines do not use any harmonic balancer. Below is a picture of a basic OEM balancer. Afterthat is a video. The video is long but it is an excellent presentation if you want to learn. One note balancers are also called "dampers". They are the same thing, just different word.
This is so cool. The general description of why Chevy is so popular makes a lot of sense to me. Now I understand. Thank you. And the harmonic balancer makes sense to me too. Maybe I will remember the name now. I thought it was just a solid metal plate. I didn't know that anything as solid as a camshaft or crankshaft could twist but I didn't know I could bang metal into a rad shell before I started this hobby either. I'll watch the video now. Thank you both. So much to learn but I know more now than I did yesterday. Makes me wonder what tomorrow will bring.
Well the DIY Ford site got the combustion chamber wrong: "The 221/260/289 combustion chamber looks like this, wrapped tightly around a pair modestly sized intake/exhaust valves. Chamber size ranges from small kidney-bean shaped 45 to 51 cc (with the 221) to 52 to 55 cc on the 260/289 heads. Valve sizes range from 1.59/1.39 inches (with the 221/260 head) to 1.67/1.45-inch valves on the 289. This small wedge is the type of chamber you can expect to see from 1962–1967". The 260 images posted in this thread are clearly different (and correct):
I watched the video from start to end. I'd love to get one but I don't think I'd need it. I just like to cruise. But now I understand why it's there and you're right, I'll probably remember the name Harmonic balancer, now that I know what it does. This isn't a hobby for some, this is a science. More fun to learn than science ever was though. Thank you.
I wasn't suggesting that you need one, only trying to help you gradually learn little things that will increase your knowledge. Since you mentioned it though, you might shine a flashlight on it and check if the rubber is protruding in an odd fashion anywhere or if it still has a consistent look.
Oh yes, I had the impression that you were just enlightening me in a manner that I would actually retain the lesson and I think it worked. I understand what the balancer does now. It's very complex and not just a flat round plate. I will check to try and ascertain what condition mine is in. Thank you.
It is normal to have many small cracks in the rubber layer, especially after a few decades, so don't worry about those.
Man with all that work to a prehistoric engine I sure hope it is gonna have the generator and timing cover breather and all that good stuff on the five bolt bell housing engines. The sad thing is you could have just got a junkyard explorer engine with the best heads Ford made gt40p for not much more than you have in working those heads.
What you say is true, but he is gaining knowledge and experience that will last a lifetime.......and thats priceless.
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