Customs Starter issues.

I believe I found my issue. Looks like a bad contact from my ground to my frame. I ground the point of contact down and have not had another issue. Thanks for all the comments. This site rocks

 

thanks for the post letting us know what you found.

 

Bad grounds will do it, so will battery cables that have hidden corrosion under the insulation. They will look fine, but will be Exorcist puke green, usually on cables with a replacement clamp.

 

It's pretty amazing how even a single defective ground point or electrical connection can hork everything, starving the ignition of needed current, engine starter, headlight output, and cripple charging from alternator.

Loose, missing, or corroded ground straps are famous for causing problems, because the starter needs 100+ DC amps when you flick the key, and it's gonna get it, maybe through something important that was never designed to carry juice. I've heard stories of brake lines or throttle cables glowing red hot. Even a paper thin, nearly invisible layer of corrosion at a ground point is enough to reduce alternator output in a big way.

Bruce Lancaster used to write here, "Clean Tight Electrical Connections = Happy Electrons" and he was right!

 

Every time I hear the dismissive “it’s just a ground” I think of the black knight “It’s just a flesh wound”

 

Good question. Starting issue threads always need this clarification.

 

Ha! Tis but a scratch!
Chris

 

No, it's when people say "all the grounds look good".

X-Ray vision, I guess.

 

Well, apparently it wasn’t the ground contact to the frame. I went for a drive and everything went great. I stopped and went into a store for 20 minutes. Came out and it didn’t start. Check the ground contact and it was solid. Dumbfounded, I sat in frustration and then it decided to start after about another 10 minutes. Ugh
I drove it home and parked it. Just to see I tried to start it and nothing!!! Left it for a few hours and went back and it started right up. I hear a hot starter solenoid can cause this. This is a NAPA refurbished starter and they tested it when I purchased it.
Ideas?

 

Hint: The starter solenoid was cold when NAPA tested it. Unfortunately, their are several problems that can cause a hot starting problem.

 

I went through the posts again, one thing I'm not too certain here, maybe I missed it, but it sounds like from your description, and what trailer trash is alluding to -

Does this defect only or always occur when everything is up to temp after being driven for a while, or does it also sometimes happen when the engine is stone cold, say after a three day weekend sitting in the garage? See where I'm goin' with that? Is it "intermittent" regardless of temperature?

A starter on its way out for exampls will do this too, assuming you're getting a "click"; if you have the test gear and know what to look for can probably narrow it down fairly quickly.

When you turn the key to start do you really get "nothing"? Or is there a hard click, in other words is the bendix drive engaging with the flywheel? If so, try banging on the starter housing with a hammer. Resistance is a lot higher when hot, excessive wear inside the starter can make it difficult to turn over. It can be intermittent that way depending where the armature ends up.

All the previous good advice in this thread applies, still.

 

It does seem to only happen at high temps but I will continue to monitor that. When I doesn’t start I get nothing when I hit the ignition. There is no click nor does the starter turn at all.

 

You asked for help but haven’t answered any of the questions from guys taking their time to help out, even the simple one of what it’s doing exactly when it won’t start.
You beat me to it, about time!

 

QUICK SUMMARY: Turn the key and sometimes nothing happens - Suspected to be related to when the starter is hot.

This is a known problem with Delco starters. I had a couple of 392 CID International Harvesters that had that hot start problem (Turn key - silence). The solenoid on the top of the starter is not getting enough amperage to activate it (takes more power to activate a hot solenoid - this solenoid is both closing a contact and pulling a gear against the flywheel teeth). Suspected cause: Undersized factory wiring and worn switch contacts (including a neutral safety switch - if installed)

Fix #1: Separate push button switch

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...ter-switch/cti0/85935?q=starter+switch&pos=12

Use 10 Gauge wire to minimize voltage drops. One wire goes to the "START" terminal on the starter solenoid. The other wire goes to battery power. I prefer to get power from the "RUN" side of the ignition switch - this is a safety feature to prevent accidentally engaging the starter (i.e. kids playing in a parked truck).

p.s. I use a spring loaded toggle switch on my 1962 Volvo

Fix #2: Use a Ford style starter solenoid

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/...ter-solenoid/mpi0/2ss3?q=starter+relay&pos=18

The "Start" wire is removed from the starter solenoid and powers the "S" terminal this relay. Advantage is that it works from the ignition switch.

15 - 20 years ago, I did 4 of these conversions on old trucks and Scout IIs. After this many years, I'd have to "Google" the wiring diagram. I do remember screwing the wiring up on one, the starter kept running - had to pull the battery cable.

It's late - Good Night, Russ

 

@TrailerTrashToo

Help me out and draw up a quick sketch of a remote solenoid wired to a GM solenoid.
Guess I can Google it, don’t know why I never have before;(.
I’ve always had a tough time trying to rationalize how/why this works.
Maybe Google will get my mind around it.

 

What are the size and condition of the starter and ground cables? These are brand new? Every single ground strap and cable? There are really shitty cables being sold these days, the "universal" replacements in blister pacs are junk. They are probably OK in a four cylinder.

Disable the ignition. Set your voltmeter on the lowest scale. Place one probe on the top of the negative battery post itself, and the other on the starter case, someplace where there's clean unpainted metal.

Crank the starter over for a couple seconds. The voltage displayed will be the total voltage drop in the entire ground system and starter. The accepted voltage drop limit is 0.2 volts. See what you get and report back. This is a basic test going back a hundred years, to get you ... ah, started.

 

The Ford/mopar style remote solenoid is the fix for inoperative “GM hot starter” and it’s also great for getting the extra little wires out of the way down there.

Here’s the modification-
Run one Battery cable to starter from remote solenoid ( it’s only energized on cranking)
On the GM starter solenoid- a short jumper from main battery lug to “S” terminal .
Wire remote solenoid as the vehicle specific diagram shows. Any connections, junctions, fusible links (everything) originally shown at the factory starter mounted solenoid are simply moved to the remote solenoid.

Makes life simpler,,,,

 

If you can't find a diagram of a Ford solenoid hook up, I'll shoot a picture of mine and post it. You need to jump the starter hot to I believe the S post on the GM solenoid.

 

This is the GM solenoid jumper I made from .025" copper sheet.

 

Here is what I have. I had to remove the pedal starter and added a push button starter on the column where the old shifter linkage went through. I did solder the purple wire off the starter solenoid to the the blue wire off the starter button. That would be the only area in that wiring I could see as an interruption but it seems a very solid contact.

The grounding cable from the frame to the back of the engine is new as well as the red power cable. Battery is new.

 

I appreciate the info on the wiring. I will pull the stretch from the starter button to the starter. It’s a direct run and easy to get to. The neutral safety switch is new. I just added a 700r4 transmission in place of the old 3 speed manual.

 

I've seen those "emergency" bolt on clamps for battery terminals cause problems. Is the starter cable terminal soldered?

I like to run the main battery negative ground cable directly to the block or a bolt on the starter itself. Directly to an alternator bracket bolt is popular. Then a ground strap to the frame. Then another ground strap to the firewall. The "big three". (If you have an aluminum radiator, they usually recommend a solid grounding strap for that too).

The starter is the highest current draw by far. I know the OEM used to route cables different, but they always used the lightest skinniest gauge (and shortest) cable they thought they could get away with. Bean counters. You'd think copper was a precious metal the way they cheaped out.

Measure the voltage drop from battery negative post to starter case as described earlier. Maybe the cables aren't a factor here in your Unpleasantness, but it is something to be checked.

 

I bought one of those NAPA rebuilts for a SBC. Would not start well when hot. Barely cranked over. I took it to the only surviving auto electric facility in our community. They found an internal ground held in place by a tiny solder joint and it fell off in their hands. Got it fixed : not cheap but I know it will work now. Problem was solved.

 

@31Vicky with a hemi has this covered (Thanks). I used 10 Gauge wire for the "a short jumper from main battery lug to “S” terminal ."

Russ

 

More WAG's
Wondering if the ignition switch or neutral safety switch is the culprit. Either one of these would keep the start solenoid from energizing.
When the solenoid/starter doesn't work, do you have any power to things that receive their power from the ignition switch (when on), like turn indicators, heater, etc.?
If there is power to those and still no start, it's possible the neutral safety switch is intermittent or out of adjustment.
If there is no power to those accessories, it's possible the ignition switch is the problem.
Check these switches out and verify whether they are working correctly, or not.

 

I have power to my electric engine fan, lights, turn signals. It’s just nothing at the starter. I had to install a new neutral safety switch when I put in the new transmission. Would the size of the wires to the neutral safety switch make a difference.
I am going to start with the easiest things first, Ignition wire and the battery connection. I will keep you guys posted as my trial and errors continue.

 

You need to size the wire for a minimum of 20 Amps and the total distance from the ignition switch > neutral safety switch > solenoid on the starter. Some 1970's Dodges had a starter relay on the firewall, between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid - the wire gauge calculations would be different.

Russ

 

Regarding your NSS, verify the adjustment.
Are you able to safely run a wire to the S terminal on the solenoid and secure it, and the next time “nothing happens” put the other end of the wire to 12 volts? This would narrow your issue down.

 

So, I purchased a metal heat shield for the starter. It did not cure my issue. I drove the truck about 15 miles and parked for 40 minutes. Truck would not start or even attempt to turn over. The electric fan kicked on as soon as I turned the key. I unplugged the pier to the fan and was able to start the truck. So the little amperage the fan took was enough to cause the starter not to work. I will go with a higher end heat reflective wrap and try it again.

 

$12.00 and a couple hrs install the Ford solenoid and be on to the next issue Because this one will be over