Technical ‘50 Flathead… Oil in the starter!

Admission up from, I’m new to flatheads… so I made my first big mistake!
First the issue, then I’ll cover what I have done leading up to this point.
I had it running perfectly, and was getting ready to take it off the stands and road test… last two jobs were new battery and fresh oil.
First mistake… assumed the tube at the front of the engine with the breather cap was the oil filler tube! It was just on dusk so the light wasn’t great, and I poured probably a full quart before I realized it was just pouring back out around the funnel! Some of it ran down the front of the engine, but most ran down the top of the block between the manifold and head, and down the back of the motor.
After a bit of HAMB research, I realized the error of my way and filled the engine oil through the correct orifice! But now it won’t start!
I thought I had run the tank dry, so added gas. Then I thought maybe the electric fuel pump just wasn’t priming. Took the fuel line off the middle carb, and check for fuel flow… didn’t seem to have any, so I thought I was chasing a fuel problem. Opened the fuel line on the inlet side to the regulator, and had fuel flowing there, so maybe the regulator? Went back to the carb line and now I have fuel, so the pump had primed, but still no start. While I was thinking fuel, I checked the pressure at the carb line, and it’s 5psi… a little on the high side, but shouldn’t be causing the no start.
Then I noticed that when I turn the key, the engine is cranking maybe one revolution (if that) and then the bendix is disengaging and the starter is just spinning! I now realize that quart of oil all flowed down over the starter on it’s way to messing up my driveway!
Question is, if I let it sit a few days, will it likely drain/dry out, or do I need to pull the starter and clean it out. I’m still not sure what the oil could be doing to cause the bendix to not fully engage? Maybe it’s creating a current path so the starter’s not getting full voltage to throw the bending all the way? So that will be my next step, but thought I’d own up to my goof, and ask for some advice in the mean time!!!
The history before this issue: It was rebuilt several years ago but has been sitting for a number of years. Pulled all the plugs and checked the compression… 120 on every cylinder, so all good. New set of plugs. Spark seems good. Started up but running rough. There was fuel leaking from one of the carbs, and the throttle pump on one of the others was sticking open, so pulled the three Stromberg 97’s off, dismantled and cleaned in the ultrasonic, and reassembled with rebuild kits. Fueling now seems good and it’s running better. Points were good, adjusted the timing, and it was now starting first turn and running like a dream! …until I did the oil change!!!
Any suggestion on the starter issue would be appreciated!
Thanks.

 

O.K., after abandoning the front tube with the 'breather cap' as the wrong tube to be filling, where pray tell did you pour the remaining quarts of oil?
Hey...it's a fair question.

 

The oil may have gotten into the solenoid or motor causing some issues.

can you hit it with some brake clean or electric cleaner and blow it out with air ?

how hard is it to get the starter off and clean it out, really should not make a huge difference , but I’ve seen stupider stuff case issues

Bad battery or bad ground sounds like it may be an issue as well

have you tried squirting some file into the carbs and see if she fires ?

would eliminate a fuel issue , possible spark issue. Is there spark at the plugs after all this ?

 

Whew?

We need pictures.
The Breather tube is the oil fill. There is a vent/road draft tube but it "should be" impossible to put oil in there.
Who knows what's been done?

I suspect that the fill tube is blocked, likely by a rat's or wasp nest. Who knows somebody may have stuffed a rag in there and forgot about it.

We need photos to see exactly what you have.

The other issues....lets figure out the oil issue before we open that bag of cats.

 

Totally fair question… the cover plate at the back of the manifold where the fuel pump originally mounted. I got oil to the full mark on the dip stick, so I know it ended up in the right place this time!

 

I thought so too… but I read a couple of threads that said that a depending on the version of manifold and the model of Flathead, the filler vent was blocked off… I haven’t researched the version issue yet, but I know I got oil into the engine eventually.
Probed with a piece of tie wire and then with the inspection camera… there’s no rag or nests in there, it seems like it’s just hitting the solid flat surface of the block.
(Need to figure out how to upload photos from my phone now we’ve killed off Tapatalk.)

 

I’ll try the electrical cleaner and air, that’s a good suggestion. It’s a pain to take the starter out, but if I need to, then so be it… I’ll try that first.
It’s a brand new AGM battery and fully charged, and it had been working fine so don’t think it’s a ground issue.

 

Here’s a photo… the vent tube at the front appears to go nowhere. Removed the fuel pump cover at the rear to add oil.

Flathead V8 by 18tillidie posted Jun 19, 2021 at 10:48 AM

 

Wowee, looks like one o' mine! Very tasty, esp. the part about 120 PSI on all 8 for compression test.
Is this now a 12 volt system? (6 V starter?) I think I can see an alternator on the far side.
Check the ballast resistor for continuity if spark seems to have disappeared.

 

There’s no solenoid… looks like it’s a centrifugal throw. There’s no oil near the main lead, or the back of the starter where the cooling fins are… I can’t see anywhere that oil could have got in, so the oil may have just been Murphy’s Law! The ground seems OK, connections are solid on the starter and chassis. I’ll check for any voltage drop across the starter relay. The starter stay engaged occasionally and it seems like it wants to start.
It may end up being the starter itself.

 

Yes, It’s a sweet looking unit. they totally cleaned up the engine bay. The only thing I’d wish they’d spent a bit more effort on is the wiring! Spent a fair while under the dash, and it’s a total mess. Had to put a new ignition switch in and the fuel pump was originally not getting power, so added a fuse and relay. When I traced the original fuel pump wire they had just connected it directly to a random accessory wire!
I have only worked on my motorcycles for the past 30 years, so I’m having a ball getting back under the hood of a car!
Yes, It’s 12V… assume it may be the original 6V starter.

 

Pull your starter man.
Three minute job.
Be careful removing the bolts going through the front case to the block.
Totally removing them will spill its guts.
After you remove the starter clean and dry it out.

 

50 Ford Custom Coupe original build by 18tillidie posted Jun 19, 2021 at 11:31 AM

here’s it’s original builders… I’m actually doing this for a friend of my wife. Her husband passed away and he had a collection of them. I helped her out getting a ‘53 Ford truck running and cleaned up so they could sell it (regret not buying that one from them!)
This ‘50 Custom Coupe had nowhere to go when they moved house, so I adopted it to clean it up for them.
I have a ‘51 Tudor sitting out back that’s next in the queue!

 

Thanks… seems like I’ll end up doing that!

 

5 psi is too much fuel pressure.I use multiple gaskets underneath where the pump apparatus bolts to the intake—-space the fuel pump up approx 1/4 inch(same as making the fuel pump pushrod shorter/less stroke for less psi) 2-2 1/2 better than 5. Disconnect the linkage for the end carbs and get the engine to run decent on the middle carb b4 trying to make all 3 run as a unit. Remove air filters(little chrome units are bad flowing causing rich fuel mixtures/fouling plugs,etc. Flatheads Forever!!

 

Please show a photo of the drivers side of the engine. The straight tube with the breather cap is the oil fill tube. Is there a hole in the intake to allow oil to enter the engine or has it been blocked off? The other curved tube in front of that is part of the crankcase breather system. You could also convert the fuel pump mount with a filler tube. Remember, your engine does need to breath and not build up pressure in the crankcase. Look here at the stock set up. What brand of intake are you using?
https://www.google.com/search?q=8ba+crankcase+breather+system&sxsrf=ALeKk014z8PdUb_GsJfJBds1D2-_eXkQYw:1624134932177&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=X5kIkM6dVsHOVM%2C_umU45Gp3T8nnM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kT7wOOQ10ktWJ1jhdJq0vg3ebiP1A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihgsyNxqTxAhWnAZ0JHa3MD14Q9QF6BAgOEAE#imgrc=X5kIkM6dVsHOVM

 

thanks. Agree, 5psi is too much. I don’t think that’s contributing to the starting issue, but I’ll adjust the regulator once I sort this out. (It has an electric fuel pump and a pressure regulator.)
Good idea disconnecting the secondary carbs. I replaced the pedal and installed a cable because the stock linkages didn’t have enough travel to operate the progressive linkages unless they were adjusted right out so they actuate at almost the same time as the primary. Still need to tweak those a little. There was already a bracket on the firewall for the pedal, so I assume they were planning to do the same thing at some point, but I’m not happy with the angle the pedal sits at, so I’ll end up making a new mount. …always something to do!
For now, gotta sort this starter!

 

Here’s the drivers side. The breather tube is on that side… never actually checked if that was venting!!! Just assumed it was, but now it appears the filler goes nowhere, I’m gonna double check!
It’s an Offenhaus intake.
I already found a polished oil filler/vent to convert the fuel pump cover, just need to order it… pain in the neck removing the cover to top up oil!

‘50 Flathead LHS by 18tillidie posted Jun 19, 2021 at 1:42 PM

 

I can see myself pulling the intake next, just to solve the oil vent mystery. It just makes no sense to me that it goes nowhere!

 

Can'r see the oil fill tube opening but, is that black rubber hose crossing over the cylinder head looks like its connected to where the straight oil fill tube is suppose to go? it appears that the intake has been modified as on the OFFY manifold there is no accomadation for the stock curved breather tube set up. the big hole up front is used fill the oil and the fuel pump stand serves as a base for a breather set up.

I know it's a pain but it would be great if you could post close up photos of the front of the manifold showing the details.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Offe...mqSgXGTaZeN0_hQd2V63tREmsv_uzQCBoChE4QAvD_BwE

If that black hose from the front of the intake is suppose to act as a breather and it runs down across the cylinder head , is it positioned under the engine so that oil vapors from the engine are getting blown onto and into the starter? Sounds crazy but, you never know.

 

Took the distributor cap and plug leads off to get a better view. Here’s the left and right side. (That black hose I think you’re referring to is the ignition wires to the coil, it’s just running inside a piece of split loom.)
The outlet breather tube is on the right side, from the front of the manifold it runs down behind the belts and then discharges down beside the oil pan below the middle exhaust header on the opposite side from the started.
The manifold has the intake breather/filler on the left, but I suspect the manifold is designed for a different variant, and doesn’t line up with the vent hole on the block.
Here’s part of a post I found with someone else with the same issue…
“Ok, lets start over. everdently you have a an 8BA, 49=53 intake on 59Ab 48 and older engine. On the front of the 8BA intake there is 2 holes about 1-1/4 in dia. The rear one is where the oil filler pipe belongs. The front hole suppose to have a breather pipe that curves down around the front cover and along the left side of the oil pan. NOW under the front of the intake there is a breather pipe. On the 8BA engine the pipe stick up about 1/8in. above the block gasket surface and sticks into the intake manifold where the front breathe pipe goes. On the 48 and older engine like yours the pipe is shorter and does not stick into the maifold and bre

50 Flathead front right by 18tillidie posted Jun 19, 2021 at 2:31 PM

50 Flathead front left by 18tillidie posted Jun 19, 2021 at 2:31 PM

athes out of that vent in the oil, pan. SO, you may be pouring oil in the front hole and it's going right down the pipe. At this stage of the game you probably better off plugging the 2 front holes and pour oil in the rear of the intake. Everdentaly your running an electric fuel pump.”

 

Sorry, inserted the photos in the middle of the quoted post on that last post!

 

Might be a 3 minute job on my 3rd or 4th one!!! But once I figured it out, it wasn’t that bad. There was no oil in it at all, and no obvious issues. Pinion is in good condition and slides on the worm smoothly.
Checked the voltage drop before I pulled it out. 0.5V from the battery side of the starter relay. That’s right on spec from the battery to the starter, but the battery was moved to the trunk, so there’s an extra 20’ of cable in the circuit. Tough to measure from the battery without adding another 20’ of jumper cable to be able to meter it, but I can check and subtract any drop on the jumper cable itself. Although, if it’s the original 6V started, the voltage drop from 12V shouldn’t be a problem.
Process of elimination at this point.
Now to get it back in!

 

What the hell is that red thing on the left inner fender?

 

Remote starter switch.

 

If you have a freshly painted engine block and bell, make sure there is some clean bare metal for the starter to ground when mounted. got the little L shaped bracket on the front end of the starter to oil pan bolt ? another good ground point

 

Yep!, correct.

 

Are you using the starter switch on the solenoid ? Or from battery to starter ?
Ther has to be a solenoid, probably the black thing with two large cables on each side and a single smaller one in front .

 

Ground at the starter looks OK, but I’m going to go over all the ground connection next, once I get this starter back together and in… Hockey’s on now, so I’m running outa time today, then I’m away for a week… I’ll get as far as I can tonight, then pick it up again next weekend.

 

Yes, sorry, we’re just crossing terminology. Yes, there’s a remote solenoid/relay on the opposite side inside fender. That’s where I am connecting the remote starter. Not very efficient having it so far away from the starter, and then having the battery in the trunk, but it does make the engine bay much cleaner.