The factory 56 4 bbl power glide car was 205 hp, 265 ci. hydraulic lifter engine. The 57 was 220 hp 283 ci. Different engine in several respects. Both years had other corvette solid lifter engines too. (used in Jr stock cars) If Grumpy's small block stocker engines were 3 grand back then,,,that's more than we had in our entire 56 Jr stocker. (we were young and a low budget operation, but it was loads of fun. will .never forget it)
I'm taking another look at the 361/305hp and could use some help on it. What CAM was in there? For the FACTORY stock cam I've seen ranges of 252-252 duration, .390 .390 lift to 268-268 duration, .430 .430 lift. That's for 1958-62. NHRA Blueprint files show the 1962 lift as .444 .456. 305 361 DP .020 Flat 2080/1660 444/456 .020 Outer w Damp From other engines in the NHRA files I would *GUESS* that's a solid cam. For example below is the 1961 NHRA Blueprint. Look how many times the same HP engine offers 2 or more cams. Anybody know which cams there are (I'm guessing .430 .430 is hyd, .446 .458 is solid?) And which one Kempton ran for all those wins (guessing the bigger solid one?) Anything on duration or even part # etc appreciated. 305 361 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 305 361 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 330 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 330 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 340 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 340 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 449/454 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 350 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 350 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 375 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 375 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 449/454 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 375 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 Notes: 1 – Available with solid OR hydraulic lifters. 2 – Optional 2.080/1.740 valves in same head.
I'm thinking with all these TF cars, bout time for a tri five vintage stock class (rules) 12.90 shootout..
In JR. Stock there was a Pure Stock segment, I believe they ran with factory exhaust? Was that AHRA, or NHRA?
I know there was a Pure Stock class circa 1960s in NHRA but not sure just what years. After the open-headers NHRA Junior Stock era ended in 1971, the 1972 NHRA Stock rules were darn near pure stock. It shows up in a few old road test & Hot Rod mag articles. I guess it fizzled because starting 1973 the rules inched back to where they were in the 1960s, and further, to where today, NHRA "stock" looks to me a lot more like what NHRA Super Stock was in 1967-71.
Both had it late in the 60's and still in 1971 when I got out of the USMC I did race my Cobrajet in NHRA pure stock once. Can't remember when it ended as I moved on the headers and slicks. I never raced AHRA but have posted photos of them in the JR. Stock thread some time ago.
It was in the NHRA rule book as far as the weight breaks and guidelines. It was optional if the local tracks wanted to run it or not. No points. No national champions and so on. Not really a part of junior stock per se.
[QUOTE="WerbyFord, post: 14259243, member: 167760"]I'm taking another look at the 361/305hp and could use some help on it. What CAM was in there? For the FACTORY stock cam I've seen ranges of 252-252 duration, .390 .390 lift to 268-268 duration, .430 .430 lift. That's for 1958-62. NHRA Blueprint files show the 1962 lift as .444 .456. 305 361 DP .020 Flat 2080/1660 444/456 .020 Outer w Damp From other engines in the NHRA files I would *GUESS* that's a solid cam. For example below is the 1961 NHRA Blueprint. Look how many times the same HP engine offers 2 or more cams. Anybody know which cams there are (I'm guessing .430 .430 is hyd, .446 .458 is solid?) And which one Kempton ran for all those wins (guessing the bigger solid one?) Anything on duration or even part # etc appreciated. 305 361 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 305 361 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 330 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 330 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 340 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 340 383 D .023 Flat 2080/1600 449/454 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 350 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 350 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 375 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 430/430 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 375 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 449/454 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 375 413 D .051 Flat 2080/1600 446/458 020 Outer w Damp 1,2 Notes: 1 – Available with solid OR hydraulic lifters. 2 – Optional 2.080/1.740 valves in same head.[/QUOTE] Werby, I understand your dilemma and wish I could be of more help. I do have a specific recollection of Dave mentioning the fact that he had chosen the '62 Sport Fury C/SA combination because it was available with a solid lifter camshaft. It would seem logical to assume that he would also have chosen the option allowing for bigger valves as well. At the time we became acquainted, Dave was the tech man at San Gabriel Drag Strip and later he served in the same capacity at the original Irwindale Raceway. It was through his guidance and cooperation that my friends and I had our first close look at the NHRA Classification Guide and eventually used it to choose specific combinations to fit our own aspirations and budgets. He patiently explained the format of the Guide and the specification sheets that were used at San Gabriel although I don't think that it was necessarily an NHRA sanctioned strip at that time. Dave used that car to win Stock Eliminator at the very first Division 7 points meet that utilized the revolutionary "Christmas Tree" handicap system at Ramona Raceway, northeast of San Diego. He drove his car to and from that event in order the seat the rings on a fresh motor. Good times!!! c
"I do have a specific recollection of Dave mentioning the fact that he had chosen the '62 Sport Fury C/SA combination because it was available with a solid lifter camshaft." Thanks Chuck. So you remember Dave saying solid cam referring to the *361/305* C/SA=10.60 Sport Fury, say circa 1963? Because in about 1966 Dave also ran a *383/343* C/SA=9.50 Sport Fury, and that was definitely a solid cam.
"Yes," to Dave's 361 cubic inch solid lifter combination in 1963. During that era there was a '62 Dodge (Polara 500, I believe) equipped with the 2-4 barrel combination (343 hp) that ran B/SA in this Division. The attached list of Stock Automatic National Records identifies the driver as Jim Johnson (Hermosa Beach). I believe that same car was also owned by Joe Ross at one point and may have even wound up in the hands of Joe Kenney from Division 1. If it wasn't the same car, it was nearly identical to the Johnson car. The holder of the A/SA record on that list was one of my lifetime best friends, the late Ron Mandella, who had bought his '63 Plymouth Belvedere wagon (426", 410 hp) from Milne Brothers in Pasadena, about a year earlier. A little later, Kempton switched to the 383 combo (including a '62 station wagon) and even ran a '63 Max Wedge car a little later. To the best of my recollection, Dave was the first Stock driver to win the Eliminator at both of the national events that were being contested at the time (Winternationals and U.S. Nationals).
Is this what you guys are talking about? I have not seen Dean in about 4 years, up until then he was still running the car. Pat
I scanned through a few pictures that may have been posted earlier and found several of Dave Kempton to illustrate my comments above. The picture of Dave at (I believe) Irwindale running the '62 car in C/SA was the combination that he ran in '63. Note that the picture taken at Indy shows him running the same car in B/SA so that would have been the 383" motor. The last picture shows Dave at Pomona running the '62 car in SS/EA. I have no recollection of that combination. Lastly, The Max Wedge car that I recalled as a '63 was actually a '64.
Val was another of the Division 7 Stock racers whose efforts defined the end of Jr. Stock. In fact, he and our good friend Paul Dilcher faced off in the final round of the final event in the evolution of Junior Stock. Gary Glover will remember Val cvas well. In a bit of insignificant trivia, Val was a good friend and former neighbor in California who has lived in my hometown in Missouri for just about as long as I've lived in his hometown here. Val has survived some health issues over the past year and, at last report, was considering a move to Texas in order to be closer to other family members.
Good friend of mine bought his carburetor shop inventory, man was that a load. I got some good exercise on that deal. I believe Val is moving in with his daughter in Texas.
1964 D/S=11.30, Fairlane 4dr comes in at W/P=11.33 with 289/271. Good fit. The other one looks like a T-bolt.
"The last picture shows Dave at Pomona running the '62 car in SS/EA. I have no recollection of that combination." I'm seeing 1967 Kempton won SS/EA=9.50 at Pomona with the 383/343 combo W/P=9.54 So I'd guess that's it.
I remember as a 12 year old going to Pratt , Burkitt and Frank's shop with my older brother and besides the wagon they also had another Kempton car sitting in the corner. I was too young to remember which one. I know the Behemouth was an ex Kempton car.
Chuck is correct regarding the jim Johnson and Joe Ross 1962 dodge Polara, I ran a 1963 plymouth sport fury 383 single 4 barrel car at Indy in 64, after losing class to the fastbacks 1964 427 Ford I decided to check into the fast 1962 Dodge that Jim Johnson was racing in Cal, Long story short I purchased the 62 Dodge n November 1964 from Jim Johnson and Joe Ross, I set a few Natl records with it and won Div 5 points that year beating Bill Hoeffer from Div 7 in his c/fx Ford. Sold the car to Joe Kenney in spring of 1967. The mystery cam that was in the car when I got it was Clay Smith super matchless 284 duration if I remember right lift was about .470 . Better heads { J heads } bigger valves better compression 2 carbs , much better solid lifter cam made this a much better motor thsn the 305 hp 361. Been racing Hemi" super stocks since then
Glad to see your validating response, Jim. The information you've provided rounds out some points that followers of this thread can appreciate. The extensive history of that Polara is a good example of the fairly tight-knit community that has existed around NHRA Stock and S/S cars through the years. Tommyd's post regarding the fact that the "Behemoth" wagon was also created on the West Coast tied up a loose link that I had previously missed. As a long-time S/S racer, you may not have been aware that the owner of the '63 Belvedere A/SA record-holding station wagon in 1964, Ron Mandella, was the older brother of Phil Mandella, a well-known chassis builder and one-time shoe of one of Jim DeFrank's extensive stable of cars. Further, you credited Clay Smith Cams of Buena Park with the camshaft grind that really brought out the best in the 383. That relatively small shop has always been a go-to for SoCal racers although much of the advertising through the years has focused more attention to Isky, Chet Herbert, and others. The owner of Clay Smith Cams was willing to spend time with walk-in, little-guy customers, listen to the specificity of their unique needs and come up with valve train products that got the job done. A few years later he eased the transition of our cars from Junior Stock into the Super Stock arena with some very effective grinds. Thanks for contributing!!! c
WOW a lot of good info there! I'm not finding a 63 SPORT Fury at least not in the current NHRA class file online, but curious cuz the 63 Fury hardtop as listed looks like not the best fit at 3333/330=10.10 for the B/SA=9.50-10.59 class is that right? For your records I have (so far) 110.97 MPH Aug 1966 12.81 ET Oct 1966 Current NHRA Blueprint says .444 lift for the 383/343, are you saying back then that .470 lift was legal or just a guess? (As you can see I'm hunting for what solid cams came in the 383/343 and 361/305) even legal optional solids. "much better solid lifter cam made this a much better motor thsn the 305 hp 361." So does that mean the 383/343 solid was a hotter cam than the 361/305 solid? I've been GUESSING the same but really no idea. I'm also under the assumption that no 383/343-8v combos ever left the factory (at least not under the hood) is that right? Then again, no 427/425-8v steel Fords ever left the factory with an automatic, either. Ford's MX automatic (aka Cruiso) was nowhere near the Torqueflite. The 427 Ford liked an auto behind it but even a hot 390 would destroy that factory MX trans in a hurry. Appreciate any more memories/details!
Werby, you ask some very valid questions about the combinations of the era and Rick is a person who may be able to help you answer them. I certainly can't provide any in-depth details but when evaluating camshafts and combinations based on the current NHRA specs, you may not get the full picture. Cam lift is about the only restriction left in the book. Duration and overlap rules were erased long ago in conjunction with valve spring pressure (on the seat and open) restrictions. Occasionally, specs were changed without warning. We got burned by ordering a factory Stage I camshaft in 1964 when we should probably have gone to George “Honker” Striegel at Clay Smith Cams. The engineers had been given the combination an extra 8° of duration in '64 but the change had never been superceded for the '63 model. Lessons learned that way become deeply embedded in one's consciousness. Also, Chrysler product developers were about the first to figure out how to play the NHRA game in terms of submitting specifications for rare and unusual combinations. There may not have been many 383/343-powered vehicles produced in 1962 but they were put into the Classification Guide and, therefore, they exist. The same foresight led the factory to build no more than a handful of '63 426 Max Wedge station wagons that were classed in Stock instead of Factory Experimental. If Ford had done the same, there might have been a listing of factory-spec Thunderbolt '63 Fairlane wagons. Or, how about choosing between that and a "Mystery Motor" 427-powered '64 Malibu wagon? GM started to get on-board with the GTO but stopped short of listing the 421 Super Duty motor as an option. In fact, GM held to the 400 cubic inch limit for intermediate-sized cars for several years after Mopar began to offer 440 cubic inch Dart/Barracuda models while Ford produced 427" Fairlanes in 1966 and 428" Cobra Jet Torinos as far back as '68.
The Jalopy Journal
