I am working on installing an 8BA Flathead into a 31 Model A tudor. I built motor mounts so I am using the car water pumps. I’ve come to the point where I need to figure out a radiator fan. The original radiator fan, which is the black one in the pictures, will hit the radiator and water pumps. However I figured out that if I take the gray fan which I believe came out of a 36 Ford and attach that fan to the black fan base, I will be able to clear everything and make that fan work. What that means is I have to take out the four rivets on both fans. And install the gray one onto the black hub. There are a couple questions and maybe someone has a better idea than me. 1. On reassembly, I would need to use bolts, weld them, or rivet them back in. I do not have anything to do the rivits. Are bolts with lock nuts and lock washers ok? 2. When I remove the gray fan itself I need to mount it on the hub behind the black fan. I also need to shorten the black shaft. I assume that it is pressed on top of the shaft. I’m wondering if anyone has done this or has a better idea than me or any advice. thank you
Ben, Read the following threads and ALL the links included before you even think about modifying your fan. There is a better way. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278828&highlight=19fordy+8ba+engine and https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307660&highlight=fan+clearance I doubt if the small 4 blade fan will cool your engine adequately as it just doesn't pull enough air. DO NOT try to cut and weld your black fan as be extremely dangerous, will be unbalanced and will crack and literally fly apart. I had that happen and such incidents have killed people standing next to the car. Hopefully the above threads will be of some help. I still have the Corvair hub if you choose to use it. Take a look at these two threads also. You may be better of using different water pumps or install your current narrow belt pumps on 1949-51 early Ford 8RT water pumps. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305993&highlight=8ba+fan+clearance As a final note. It's not a good idea to use 50 year old used metal fans as after many years of flexing they work harden, develop hairline cracks and fly apart without warning.
ok. will do. I do not see any links attached. I did do a search but came up with nothing on modification. I do know, or think i know, that a fan can be generator mounted, but i want to keep my pulley configuration as i have it- simple for me.
The easiest way is to use a 16 inch electric fan. I have used truck water pumps with the wide belt crankshaft pulley and the '48 and earlier oil filled fan assembly. If you didn't recess the firewall to clear the fuel pump you will have a problem with the belt driven fan. Since I can't see how you assembled the conversion I can't offer much more than that. My last thought on this conversion is always mount the rear axle and work your way forward. That will put the engine at the right distance from the radiator but you'll need to cut and fab a recess in the firewall for the fuel pump. See my avatar car. It has lots of clearance ahead of and behind the fan.
I left the rear axle factory. I worked from there forward I used a 3 speed toploader and the 8ba. I miss the firewall by about 1/8". I know an electric fan will work. I prefer the mechanical. but am a novice.
The "safety" of your fabrication skills, strength of your welding, accuracy of your fit, etc. cannot be accurately assessed over the internet. Don't sell your ideas short. The person who balances in this area says he balances everything he can find in his house - as if it's a fun and rewarding thing to do. I think a fan could be balanced. Did Ford balance these fans originally? Forty, is that shaft solid or hollow? D
19Fordy. I see the links now. Thank you dmar836. i would get the fit done by myself (i can handle that) and have a professional welder do the rest. i am a good welder, but not for that.
Ben: I too prefer a mechanical fan. Just do more research and don't take the chance of modifying your black fan as you are playing with a potentially very deadly component. Check this out. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307337&highlight=corvair You could also change your cooling system to wide belt system which uses a different belt configuration.
If the shaft is hollow it can be turned to true the ID and sleeved. If solid, it can be turned for a step fit and a nice chamfer added to allow for deep weld penetration. Done poorly with little knowledge or skill it would be dangerous but that Henry steel, when clean, welds like nothing else! LOL. I keep expecting these links to reference deadly incidents.
The finished weld would have to be checked for internal cracks and the entire assembly balanced even with a professional weldor. In any case, I would not that old metal fan blade. Here's more info. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307318&highlight=8ba+fan+clearance Read about "killer fans". https://www.google.com/search?q=aut...i160j33i299.8056j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
If you can get the shaft shortened and have a step to center the fan, you should have no problem with welding it as long as you don't glob mounds of weld on it. I would initially put three small tack weld in place and then mount it and see that it runs true and clears everything. You don't need to rev it up, just let it idle since its just tacked. If it runs true, then finish the weld. I would just do a series of overlapping tack welds......skipping around from side to side till you have a full circle. That helps keep from depositing a lot of weld in any one area. As long as you don't glob weld on it you should not have any problem with balance because it is rotating about such a small circle. Sometimes those continuous welds tend to look like Catapillars. Edit: Will this affect your fan belt location?
I am getting close to figuring this mechanical fan situation out. The missing piece is a 6" +/- diameter Idler pully with a 3/8" groove. Anyone have any ideas? i have spent many hours looking for this. Shaft size is not a problem as I can have anything made to adapt.
I wouldn't mess with the integrity of the fans just to get clearance. If needed, Knowing my lack of skill and patience I would go with an electric fan.
Here's some 6 in. pulleys but with larger dia. shaft. https://www.google.com/search?q=6+i...i57j0i22i30.8480j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Once you cut the rivets out of the black fan why can’t you attach an aftermarket fan to it? Bolted to it just like any other fan would be bolted in.
Or drill equally spaced holes between the existing rivets and tap them for fine threaded bolts. Then screw on bolts as an extra safety measure, Use Locktite.
Thanks for the replies. I cant use the stock fan or set up or even just change the fan because it sticks out too far. An electric fan is last resort. I feel there must be a way, although I am beginning to lose hope. My thought was to use the original bracket that holds the original fan to the engine. Have a new 5/8" shaft milled to fit into that bracket. Then get a 6" +/- idler pulley with a 3/8" grove, to take the place of the original fan pulley. Here shaft size does not matter as the machine shop can adjust the diameter. I have found smaller idler pulleys, but that will speed up the fan and i dont think that is good. This elusive idler pulley would then be the the limiting factor on how much room i have between it and the stock radiator position. This would give me 2 7/8" of space. The machine shop would remove the hub off a 1975 f100 water pump and press it on to the new shaft at a position where the new blade would not hit the idler pully belt or the radiator. The new fan is a 16" mustang fan that is 1 7/8 +/- deep. Because the flat mounting surface of the fan is centered "more or less" in the 1 7/8" depth, the hub could be placed in an exact position to give me 1/2" from the fan to the radiator and 1/2" from the fan to the belts or something like that. So a 6" pulley does not help me because it does not have a bearing. I found an idler pulley from TERRE, but it was for a John Deer compact tractor part, so i dismissed it. JOHN DEERE TCA17540 V-GROOVE IDLER PULLEY - 6'' DIA.- 3/4'' BORE - STEEL. This is my thinking. All work done by a machine shop. I dont think this is being unsafe. I believe it is safe an have had no indication from the machinist that it is not safe. If it cant be done then i will go electric. But i have to give it a try. I have put a lot of time and thought into this, but am not opposed to the electric if it must be that way. Thanks again for the help. all replies and criticism welcome
Hey Ben, what is the measurement of your fan pulley, I/e as you have in the last pic laid down to where the fan mounts? I have one that looks similar (might be the same damn thing) but I don’t recall which engine it came off of. But I don’t recall it having that much exposed shaft. I haven’t looked at it in a few years, but will measure it before I leave for work this afternoon
budget36, The outside diameter of my existing stock fan pulley is 5.75". sorry if i am misunderstanding you. Thanks for reading
19forty, You are right. I have been thinking about this all wrong. I need a pulley, with a bearing inside, and the ability to connect a fan to the pulley. Otherwise my fan would not spin.
Ben, I to struggled to install a mechanical fan, but I made it work with the 8ba. I did drill out the rivets and installed a Ford 4 blade fan using high grade bolts and lock tight. It cools just fine. Don't give up. What crank pulley are you using? How is the fan pulley being driven? Pictures of the motor and radiator in the car would help.
Ben. To do what you are trying to do does require a pulley with a bearing installed so that the pulley can spin. I finally made my own fan pulley out of a chunk of 6061 aluminum. My fan is bolted to the aluminum pulley. The bearing rides on a new 5/8 in shaft I made using a long 5/8 in. dia bolt. I knurled the 5/8 dia. bolt and then pressed on the bearing for a good tight fit. Use the biggest sealed bearing possible to handle the load. I used two sealed bearings inside the pulley. You could also use a 3/4 in bolt and turn it down to 5/8 inch. The head of the bolt is turned down to make the surface numbered 4 for centering the new stainless flex fan fan. I did not want to use a 50 year old fan. I no longer have access to a lathe so those days are gone. However, if you know a person with a lathe or a good machinist, he could make you a new pulley with a roller bearing that would accept a 5/8 inch shaft. The bearing would press into the puilley and be held in place with a snap ring. A 5/8 in. dia. shaft would be a press fit thru the bearing and the pulley would spin freely on the shaft. You could make your own shaft or use 5/8 dia. machine bolt with a long shank. That's what I used 20 years ago and it still spins fine. I made wide belt pulley (including fan spacers) as shown. Here is a sketch I made for you this afternoon (1/15/22) of this idea. Talk it over with your machinist for more recommendations. Hope it helps. It would be better to use 1/4-28 UNC threads on the aluminum. More holding power and less chance of stripping the threads. Use BLUE Loctite on the bolts also. In my sketch, I said to make 6 holes in the aluminum pulley to attach your fan. Better idea is to make the number of threaded holes based on the number of holes in your fan to get the correct spacing. Best of luck in you "fan" adventure. Be patient and push forward. Jim
I think this is what you mean? This was off one of the FHs I had. Didn’t have that many, but still can’t recall which one! this has bearings in the hub.
Budget36. I had one of those in my 40. Then one day in 1972, one of the fan blades broke off without warning and went thru the radiator and the hood. I was standing next to the engine compartment. That was a "found Jesus moment" Vowed then, never to use another 50 year old steel fan. Too bad this wasn't made in a narrow belt style for Ben. https://www.macsautoparts.com/worry...MIkf2ohYG19QIVthmtBh1RBAU9EAQYASABEgJBnPD_BwE
Hey Ben, I had an electric fan but am reverting back to a mechanical. I have a six blade fan assembly from a truck. I was told to do a ring test on the blades to detect any cracks using a fiber stick, listening for a difference in ring tone. All blades sound the same and the assembly looks to be in great condition, so I'm going to use it. Just gathering a few more data points by showing you what I'm experiencing. I originally had narrow belts and truck mounted pumps. I changed over to wide pulley pumps, wide crank pulley, wide alt. pulley and the wide fan pulley. In the pic you will see that I have less than 1/4" clearance from the fan blades to the crank pulley. I have not figured out any other method of narrowing this assembly and decided to move my rad as deep as possible into the shell and if need be I will add an inch to the length of my hood, which is not too difficult for me. If I didn't already have the driveshaft sized and balanced I would have simply moved the engine back an inch. The firewall is already clearanced for the fuel pump. I also want to use a fan shroud. Measuring from the fan assembly mounting surface to the most forward position of the blades is 6 5/16" with this particular fan assembly. I'm hoping the effort pays off. Good luck with whatever solution you use.
Lots of great info here. I will get some picts of the engine tomorrow. I did want to say, i will not be using this fan pictured. I have a line on an NOS one. But I think this may work out. I did see the wide pully one from macs earlier Thanks
Maybe I should have explained further The intent wasn’t to look at an old fan, but how the hub and shaft were made, also that it is adjustable for position. The reason the fan is still attached is it’s an 8 bolt hub/fan. I figure I’d keep it together for some reason, since I think I held a regular 4 bolt fan up to it, and the BC was different.
One nice thing about steel is the last 5-10% of the fatigue life is tiny surface cracks forming, and then getting progressively longer/deeper until failing completely. I'm guessing the "ring test" of the installed fan would be of value, but maybe only for cracks already maybe 10% of the metal thickness and fairly late in failure process. A good visual inspection with bright light and magnification ( and paint removed) would likely detect a dangerous blade. A can of the penetrant and developer is probably less than $30 at the welding store. https://www.amazon.com/CANTESCO-K80...T46ZDLW/ref=dp_fod_1?pd_rd_i=B00T46ZDLW&psc=1
The Jalopy Journal
