1952-59 Ford Torque converter problems...

Have my water cooled Fordomatic transmission out of my '56 Fairlane for a reseal, took the torque converter apart to replace both the o-rings and found the converter cover pitted where the o-ring sits. I am going to try and clean the cover up but not sure if it is going to leak again or not.
I can't seem to find anyone that sells rebuilt converters to fit my application, anybody know of someplace? Or does anybody have a good converter cover for sale?
I see that Ford went to a welded torque converter around 1958, anyone know whether or not I could update mine with the newer type? If I can, would I need to change flex plate and ring gear?
Hoping that someone here has some information on this...
B.t.w., my transmission shifts fine and does not slip, it just leaks a lot of fluid!
Thanks in advance.

 

This company does a lot of antique auto trans repair Fisher Auto trans (FATSCO) located in Fairfield NJ. They may be able to help with parts or info..

 

Thanks Paul... Fatsco is where I bought my o-rings. I looked on their website but didn't see anything other than the o-rings. I'll call them and see what they have to say.

 

You have a picture of what you need Jim? I have a spare air cooled 56 Fordomatic and may have it. I have just never paid much attention to where the seal rides, so am not completely following what you need.

 

I don't have a picture but here is a drawing (off the web) that shows the exploded view of the converter. Red arrows point to the seals #19, that I'm replacing, and #20 is where the seal goes and what is pitted...

It is my understanding that there is a difference between the converters for the air cooled and water cooled transmissions, the air cooled converter has fins and the water cooled is smooth. There is also a difference in the size, according to Fatsco, of the o-rings. If yours is air cooled, then your converter looks like this...
where mine is smooth.
Ford had , what's called, a small, medium and large case Fordomatic. I believe that the small case was the air cooled transmission, the water cooled was the medium case (what mine is), both had the bolt together converter. The large case came out in '58 and had the welded converter.
So have I confused you yet? I think that I am....

 

Lol...yea, all I heard was that Ford kept changing it and made things confusing. But, of the now three Fordomatics I have including the one in the car, not sure I would have anything that would help you.

 

Well I appreciate the thought! See ya in a couple of months...

 

I have a complete 55 air cooled Ford o Matic with the converter that ran and shifted fine when I removed it last year, it was behind the 272 in my avatar. Have it advertised for $75 on the HAMB but would take $25 to you. The car has less than 75K miles, I believe it was around 70K when removed. Mark

 

If Jim isn’t interested, I may be. Only costly deal there would be shipping.

 

Yeah, about 200 lbs + the pallet would not be cheap. I am in Oregon, near Salem.

 

Thank you for the offer. I'm wanting to stick with my water cooled transmission, the transmission itself is fine.

Maybe a hamb relay?

 

Yea, or I went and looked how far it was from the nearest Ditch Witch dealer...but that’s Portland...I can usually get parts to and from them easy.

 

I could get it to Portland as long as it wasn't downtown, I don't have enough firepower to risk going there! Mark

 

I shipped a fordomatic from seattle to southern Texas about 3 years ago using Fastenal. Had to be on pallet and boxed.. I think it was about $150. Probably more now (If they still do shipping)

 

Good news for me! The back cover cleaned up real well so put the new o-rings in and bolted it back together, most likely will stab the trans back in this evening and hope for the best!

 

Give me a call, I've got a twelve gauge with a 25 round drum, we'll make a day of it.

 

Now THAT sounds like a good time!

 

Update to my last update...
Drove it around a bit Friday and put it back in the garage after I had cleaned up all the old oil off the floor. Backed it out yesterday and found one small spot of transmission fluid on the freshly cleaned floor, bummer!
I will get it back on the lift and try to see where the fluid is coming from, hopefully it is some that wasn't cleaned off the underside and not a new leak! I hate leaks!!

 

10 years on my 56. Yblock with a Cruise-O now. Still chasing leaks. They all did and still do. Only the modern 8.8 in the rear doesn’t.

 

I was so hoping to be able to solve all my leaks when I swap engine and transmission soon with all new seals. My car leaks from pretty much everywhere now. This isn’t helping my confidence.

 

Biggest improvement on the engine was PCV system. Running with a vacuum on the engine really helps..

 

Oil leaks are what led to my changing my Y Block for a 302 / C4 combo. My car was low mile (68K) when I bought it but was 60 years old. I hated to park it in my friends driveway cause it always left a half dollar size (combined) engine oil / transmission oil puddle if it sat for any length of time. While chasing that leak I found the pinhole in the block that was leaking coolant so out it came and in went the 302. Leak free every since! Parts are way cheaper and easier to get as well but has lost some of the charm when you open the hood. I am way over the Y Block! Mark

 

Here it is, 2 months later from my last post concerning my leaking torque converter! Leak has gotten progressively worse, maybe even worse than before. Does anyone know of a source for rebuilt converters? Or does anyone know of a later model converter that can be subs***uted?
I have been reading about the FMX transmission being a bolt in conversion, anyone have any knowledge about this? And what torque converter would that require? Thanks...

 

A friend is doing this now in his 56 pickup. I usually see him on Saturdays.
You can always call Art Carr at California Transmissions in Huntington Beadch Ca. and ask him. He knows Ford transmissions of this era better than anyone. His heath is not as good as it once was but I believe he still comes to the office and answers questions. Have a paper and pencil handy.

 

An FMX swap?

 

That’s what you asked about. FMX

 

i believe the fmx conversion is done using a mix of fmx and fordomatic parts.....i have a fordomatic in my vicky and had it rebuilt by an old auto trany guy....more recently i got an fmx box and he is going to put all the new internals out of the fordo box into the fmx but he will have to modify the torque converter and a couple of other bits for this to happen.....but this is sometime away

 

I will try to attach a word do***ent I have that is a bunch of information on Ford transmissions including the FMX to Ford o Matic thing. Hope this helps, Mark

It's been some years since I have done this, but perhaps I can shed some light. Junkyard Jeff is on the right track, and there's a few other things as well.

The transmission has to have the one way clutch (sprag) in the center of the rotating ***embly, to allow 1st gear takeoff under normal conditions; if so, you then modify the detent on the internal shift lever or use the FMX piece, & drill & tap the case for the modulator (connected to manifold vacuum); then install the FMX valve body. Take a look at the FMX to find the correct location for the hole. You can use the sprag from a Ford-O-Matic, Cruise-O-Matic, or FMX; for that matter all the internal parts from a FMX will bolt into the Ford-O-Matic or Cruise-O-Matic. The FMX is a linear descendant of the Ford-O-Matic, as is the Cruise-O-Matic. The shift indicator may need to be changed, and you often find that a stock shifter may not have enough travel; you can either modify the slot or use a different shifter. You generally find that the FMX valve body blocks the p***ages to the rear pump; you can take the outer gear of the pump off (the pump isn't used now anyway) and leave the inner gear in as a spacer.

All this applies to the Merc-o-Matic as well, but the two bigger Lincoln cases (HX & LX) have some different internals...dunno what if anything would be different about the procedure.

If you are willing to use a slightly different approach, you can redrill the top two holes in a FMX case and bolt it onto the Ford-O-Matic bellhousing. This solves all the internal parts issues, but it's not quite that simple, as the converter & front pumps are different.

You can A) use the Ford-O-Matic converter & front pump in the FMX case, which is the easiest way to go; however, early Ford-Os have a weird tang drive system for the converter/pump which has been known to break off.

B) You can use the FMX converter and pump, but then you'll need to machine a bushing to index the smaller FMX converter pilot with the larger hole in the Y block crank.

C) You can get a transmission guy to build a custom converter with the larger pilot & the later pump drive; basically a Ford-O front shell with a FMX rear shell (oversimplified). This will use the FMX front pump in the FMX.

In the event the FMX is used, it may be easiest to use the Ford-o-Matic tailshaft housing & tailshaft, so that the original mount & driveshaft can stay the same.

So far as mods go....virtually all the mods would involve first converting it to a Cruise-o-Matic or FMX style trans, I would guess. Trans-Go still offers a shift kit for the FMX. Another source would be Jay at Broader Performance http://www.broaderperformance.com/ who has developed some improvements for the Cruise-O-Matic; he could also build a custom converter. Jim Paquet at JPT Transmissions has worked with them also .

All this is from memory and an old thread from years ago, so it's quite possible I've forgotten something.


FMX transmissions can be purchased cheap. They're pretty strong transmissions, but they have an iron case, so hot-rodders don't use them.

To swap an FMX, you'll need; a bellhousing for a Ford-O, a Y-block cruisomatic flex plate (59-62?), the FMX torque converter, and a sleve to fit the hub of the torque converter to the Y-block crankshaft. You'll have to drill two holes in the FMX mounting flange, but with all these other parts, it should fit fine. Use the shift linkage clamp thingie from the Ford-O trans on the FMX.

Another article with pictures: http://www.y-blocksforever.com/tech/html/fmx_upgrade.html




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Re: c4, AOD, FMX transmission lengths?

« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 06:52:53 pm »

Pick your source for information...........


Quote

C4 and AOD Dimensions
---------------------

Overall Length (bellhousing to tailshaft housing end, flat-to-flat):
AOD - 30 3/4"
C4 - 30 1/4"

Notes:
"Engine Swapping Tips and Techniques" lists C4 length as 27 3/4" (C6 length
28 1/2" or 28 3/4"). I may have measured to the end of the output shaft,
not to the end of the tailshaft housing.

Distance from Bellhousing to Insulator Mount (flat to mounting hole centerline):
AOD - 21 3/4"
C4 - 19 3/4"

Torque Converter Stud Spacing (centerline-to-centerline)
AOD/C4/164 teeth flexplate - 8 1/4" between closest studs, 11 7/16" between
farthest studs (stud pattern diameter)
C4/157 teeth flexplate - 7 3/4" between closest studs, 10 5/8" between
farthest studs (stud pattern diameter)

Transmission Lengths from "The E4OD", Ford High Performance, April 1995

Trans Bellhousing Overall Length
Face to Trans From Bellhousing
Mount Length To Tailshaft End

C4 20 1/4" 30 1/2"
C6 22 1/2" 33 1/2"
AOD 22 1/4" 30 3/4"
E4OD 29 3/8" 37 1/2"

Torque Converter Snout Diameter (from early SVO catalog)
289, 302, 351W/C/M, 400, 429/460 - 1.375"
FE series and early '68 Lincoln 460's - 1.848"

Flexplate Diameters
164 teeth - 14 3/16" (13" converter)
157 teeth - 13 1/4" (11" converter)

From http://www.fordsunlimited.com/Tech/c42aod.htm (great article and info)




C4 Dipstick o-ring NAPA part# 1-3901 $0.58 10-16-20



transmission_dim_chartG1.JPG (52.03 KB, 480x672 - viewed 10727 times.)


TCI Auto Ford C4 and C6 universal shift lever


Part Number: 418400

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Overdrive Information! http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/TechData/BWOverdriveManual.pdf

 

For some reason the pictures / charts won't load from my original do***ent. I may try to do this over tomorrow but going to the FMX gives you first gear start plus a better torque converter and front pump arrangement that is more stable then the early Ford o Matic. The link from y blocks forever for the FMX to y block does work and has some excellent pictures and info. See what you can sort out from what's here, sorry about the mumble jumble of do***ents. Every time I would find something interesting that I thought might be helpful in the future I dump it in this file and it looks like it is a dump! Mark

 

Thanks Mark for posting this, it's very helpful!