Technical Balance Beads......Again

Ok folks. I know there are several threads on balance beads and I've read them. Despite that, I'm still having a problem getting my 49 Buick's ride smoothed out.

First, I bought a set of Coker Classics (235/75-15) and had them conventionally balanced. I had a pretty bad vibration at 70-75mph. I figured the Cadillac Sombreros were the problem, so we added balance beads to the already balanced tires. Even without the Sombreros, I still had a bad vibration at 70-75 mph.

So, my tire dealer called Coker and they agreed to take the tires back. In exchange, we ordered a set of the Coker American Classics, an upgraded tire and I paid the difference. Yesterday, they mounted them and put balance beads in and this morning, I mounted them up. At 70-75 mph, I still had a bad vibration, even without the Sombreros. I have checked lateral and radial runout and they are as true as you could expect. The worst tire had about 3/32" radial runout. I also changed out the front rotors, mainly so I could have the same bolt pattern front and rear.

Wanting to gain more insight, I had a buddy ride beside me down the interstate. He reported that the tires on the DS looked pretty darn smooth. (This included the tire with the worst runout.) The tires on the PS, however, were severely out of balance and hopping up and down. So, I've got more work to do.

I would really like to use the balance beads because of the Sombreros. I feel like this should give me the best chance of a smooth ride once those are installed. I'm thinking they need to put more balance beads in the tires. Has anyone out there had a similar experience? What was the fix? How much balance beads should it take for these big tires? Or should I just give up on the balance beads and have the tires Road Force Balanced?

Thanks for your inputs, as always.

Rock

 

I have some experience with big 4x4 tires. These beads do work. I haven’t used them on vintage bias ply tires, but I think they would have to help. The theory is good. They balance themselves every time.

 

Chased the same thing in my daily (03 Silverado) old tires had cupped on the pass side front. Rotated them, same thing. New tires and started shaking again after a few hundred miles.
My issue was a bad/weak strut/shock (whichever it’s called) on the pass front side

 

I should have added. This is a new build with new coilovers at every corner. I do not believe there is a problem with the suspension.

 

I was going to mention shocks but check the wheel also.

 

I did. The COMPLETE assembly had minimal radial runout and no lateral runout that I can see, whether measured at the rim or the tire.

 

How much bead weight do you have in them? We use a lot beads at work in school bus tires. We have found the bigger the bead, the worse they work. The large diameter beads ( BB sized ) belong in tire that are going to run for hours at a time at highway speeds. For slow speed and stop and go driving, you need the really small glass type that static cling to everything.
Try pulling the rough riding tires off and turn them 180* and put them back on, you might have a compound weight issue with a out of balance rotor or drum and tire. If you can find an older shop with a on the car spin balance or road force balancer, then you can have the whole rotating assemble balanced as a unit.
I run beads in my daily driver truck, out on the highway they work great, but if I slow down and almost stop ( think traffic jam or construction ) the tires go out of balance real bad. To cure it I pull to the side and come to a complete stop or run off the side of the road on to the rumble strips to shake the beads, after that they are back to balanced. My truck has stud mounted wheels ( Toyota ) and most tire shops don't have the adaptor to hold them correctly on the tire machines, that's why I went with beads.

 

Hello,

At high speed, the idea of those beads is to get sent to the outside of the circumference of the tires. If all four tires are set up this way, why would you and others not think there could be a problem using the beads to all coordinate and do their jobs correctly.

It seems to me that it is up to the beads and spinning to get them out to the edge. But, are you going to leave it up to some randomly moving beads to balance a high speed tire? Or tires? Even if the whole suspension has new parts, shocks, arms, springs, the beads are the culprit. (Sounds like a hundred people all trying to solve the pandemic... They can't all do the same thing to get rid of the problem... each does their own thing. ETC.)

For all of the time and energy spent on your hot rod(s), why rely on random moving beads to balance the tire(s)? Get it to a competent tire and wheel alignment place and let them correctly balance your rims and tires. Your hot rods deserve better, as cool as they are...

The steel rims can use clip on weights and custom tape on weights as per location of the desired spots for full balancing. The spinning machine will show where. Ask a good knowledgeable balance guy. Those new machines were designed to work with wheels/rims that do not have steel lips for weights as we all know. So, they still do a great job of balancing wheels/rims that are different.

Jnaki

Your investment in your car and accessories needs help. Why mess around with something so random as the balance beads. Sure, the ads/videos may seem like a simple way to balance. But, the tire balancing industry did not invest in million dollar machines and apparatus just to get shoved aside by some little beads rolling around at their own choosing.

Tried and true wheel/tire balancing should not be shoved aside. There is a way and you just need to ask a competent wheel and tire person who knows his stuff. Also, have them check your tires for being “round.” YRMV

 

You could have a bad rotor or drum , bad shock or bushing .


If you could get the wheels road force balanced that would confirm wheel / tire issue .

if you could find someone with an on car balance that would be great .


And just because it’s a new build with new parts , means bupkiss!! New parts fail all the time .

good luck .


And balance beads do work very well .

 

Check out the drive shaft, too.

 

Both passenger side tires? That's coincidental. Swap sides...

 

First, its unlikely that you got two different sets of tires and they both had the same problem. My suggestion is to see if you have a friend with a similar bolt pattern and ask if he will try the tires on his vehicle.
Baring that, I would jack your car up on and set the frame back down onto something solid like some 6x6 wood or something that would hold the wheels off the ground at speed. Then sit in the car and run it up to speed. Then remove one wheel and do it again. Then the other wheel and do it again. Try the front ones on the rear as well............I say this because we chased a tire problem once where the cars front wheels transmitted no vibration to the steering, yet the car had a vibration. Turned out to be a broken belt in a FRONT tire.
If you put the car on a jack or a two post lift, be sure there is nothing in front of the vehicle just in case something goes wrong.
If the car still has the vibration after all the testing I would look at the driveshaft and U Joints. Some times it can be as simple as overtightening a u Joint cap if yours uses the U bolts.
One thing you did not say in your earlier posts. Did your car ever drive normally before you put the first tires on it ?

 

Thanks for all your replies. I guess my underlying question is, will adding more balance beads possibly fix my problem? I think they put 4 ounces of beads in the tires and I know I've seen more weights than that added to my previous Coker Tires. My thinking is we dont have enough in these big, heavy tires. These beads are not cheap and I am not trying to find a cheap way out. In fact, they cost more. I'm trying this because I hope they will compensate for any imbalance that my Sombreros may induce.

This is a meticulously built car. Everything that has been suggested was tried with the previous set of tires. That is why we changed tires. It is purely a coincident that both imbalanced tires are on the PS.

 

Take a little extra time and swap them from right to left,,,,or at least one .
If after that you still have two bouncing rights,,,,,,you know it’s not the wheels or tires .
It sounds like a really nice car,,,with a lot of time and effort invested .

My rule of thumb is,,,,,,if you just can’t find the fix for a mechanical problem,,,,,,you’re not looking in the right direction .
Sounds like you have really tried everything you can think of,,,,,at least two sets of tires .
I don’t think the extra beads will help any at all,,,,you already have 4 ounces in there,,,,,and they are hopping off the road .
Good luck man .

Tommy

 

My concern is that you have an underlying problem that you may be masking but not actually fixing. Good luck whatever you decide to do........

 

Absolutely, switch the wheels from side to other side and make sure it is in the wheel/tire combination instead of continuing chasing your tail, so to speak.

 

I am really tired of effing with this. Because I have coilovers and limited droop in the rear, I have to put the car in the 2 post and drop each side of the axle to remove the rear tires. I know. I know. Thanks

 

I've never had any luck with the beads. Put them in truck tires, couldn't tell a difference. That being said, the idea is sound, but going about it the wrong way.

I run balancers on my truck called Centrimatic. They have steel balls encased in a steel tube filled with oil. They go between the brake drum and wheel over the lug studs. My tires run true and wear even. I know they make them for some pickups and some cars, you can go to their website and see.

 

I agree with Elco…I’m sure it’s not the majority but what I’ve read and 2 friends problems I would not by Coker tires. I’ve removed the Diamond Back white walls because I changed the look of my car but they were perfect.

 

Got a set of old-ish Cokers on my Pontiac.

60+ it would shake like a son of a gun. Perfectly balanced wheel.

Not completely dead, but soft shock, and a loose (read half missing) bushing allowing about an inch of free movement vertically in the suspension, un-damped.

I know it's new, I know it's meticulous, but check the bushings- if you put them in 2 years ago and built the car up since, modern rubber is so much dog turd. If you've got lash, even a well balanced wheel will throw a wobble via the tire sidewall if it's pushed to do so by the road.

New shocks, new bushings on mine and it cruises like a new car, even at speed. No changes to the wheels, tires, pressure, anything.

$0.02

 

Have you checked the wheels without tires ?

Is there runout vertically or laterally.

How far out of balance are the wheels on a balance machine without tires mounted ?

 

^^^^^ this maybe - sometimes forgotten about.
@indyjps - you bet me too it….

 

Yes. There is virtually none. Didn't run this set on the balancer....yet.

 

Rock if you came into my tire store our standard practice would be to move the wheel to the other side to see if the issue follows. Assuming it does, we would check the rim only on our Hunter road force balancer to ensure the rim was within spec, mount up the tire and road force that unit on the Hunter. If it did not exceed the parameters for a bad tire we would index the tire matching it to the the rim. If it still could not be balanced the tire would be replaced and the process would start over.
I know it is a pain in arse but that Hunter is your best friend. If you could find a shop that still has a tire shaver that would also true up the tread and could normally balance it on the car assuming the tire and rim are good to begin with. Someone surely must have a machine to do this in your area. Most tire shops know who still does this.

 

My model T had a shimmy problem. I tried everything. Three different sets of wheels with 3 different sets of tires. Standard balancing and balancing beads. I had a dial indicator on everything that spins. Found nothing perfect, but no glaring out of spec condition. 25K miles worth of playing with it. By this time the front tires were getting worn, so I purchased two 185/60 Pirelli tires and had them road force balanced. As far as "round" tires, those Pirelli's are the roundest tires I have every seen. The road force balancing operation put a lot of weights on the rim. Didn't add up the weights, but it was a lot. I haven't had a shimmy since then. Seems to be fixed. I figure the "round" tires and the road force balancing did the trick.

 

I don't have kind words for Coker as I've had bad service and bad product.

 

We have used up to 8 oz in some 225/75 r 16 tires the would not balance out, the extra beads cured them.

 

Thank you! That is the type information I was looking for! I'm still going to test the tires on the other side of the vehicle but I have the suspicion that they need more beads.

 

Road tested with tires swapped to the other side. Vibration followed the tires plus one other tire exhibited imbalance. Even tried adjusting the shocks firmer. All that did was put more vibration into the wheel and the seat. Going back to my tire guy in the morning and we will probably do the road force balance. He has the machine.

 

When I worked at Sears in the 60’s changing tires it was the era of those godawful Allstate “Snake Treads”. I move a lot of them on rims trying to get a good balance for customers. Many were changed out. Armstrong made them and the weighed a lot with so much rubber.