Technical Break in oil was not enough

Are you old enough to remember VARI-CAM? And RHOADS LIFTERS are still around -

http://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/OriginalOERoller.html

 

You got it. The lifter has to spin. If you go to the trouble of degreeing a cam in, you might as well mic for the tapers.

Oil is a specific thing. It all depends on lift/events and spring pressures. I don't see the benefit of an overly hot cam on the street unless it is built for a purpose, i.e., a SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL.

As for oil, break-in specific, drop, and a true racing oil say for the first 500 miles or so.drop. Then a product like VALVOLINE VR-1 RACING OIL with frequent changes due to low detergent/dispersant packages (IMO).

Of course, correct assembly with lube and priming and a quick fire (no grinding).

 

I get a big kick out of it also. Actually you can somewhat modify metals with oils such as moly. But that is for the college boys.

Also try - ENGINE OILS - DIESEL or GAS (of course) - HYDRAULIC VALVE-TRAIN lash (how to set) - BRAKES and BRAKE VALVING.

 

I have a set of Rhoads for a sbc and back when we were racing vw we had a vari-cam.

 

I have Rhoads lifters and a 280 Comp Cam in my 350, not fired yet though.
Also has a "noisy" Pete Jackson gear drive.......yuck!

 

I saw this. One thing to remember is if the lifter bores are wore excessively, the lifter won't spin.

 

Well actually that ZDDP discussion is pretty much done, since other components in modern oils took over.

I you really do a load/wear test (load/carrying capacity/Film strength at 230* F) and compare the actual capacity of each oil, to the amount of ZDDP in there, it's all over the place and without any correlation.

For example:
Best oil when it comes to wear/film strength:
5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM = 115,612 psi film strength - zinc = 806 ppm

second best:
10W30 Lucas Racing Only = 106,505 psi film strength - zinc = 2642 ppm

So even with more than double the amount of zinc, the Lucas oil got lower numbers, than the Pennzoil with just 806 ppm.

While the 30 wt Red Line Race Oil with its loaded package of zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm and moly = 1235 ppm only got 96,470 psi.

Even a "cheap" 20W50 Castrol GTX conventional, API SN scored better than this.

Bottom line: it's complicated - no easy answers.
But looking at ZDDP alone doesn't cut it anymore.

Frank

 

Perhaps " load carrying capacity " isn't a viable parameter either ?

 

I'd really like to know where you got your data, and what test was performed. I suspect it comes from that guy with his own website that been posted here before with his secret test that he won't reveal what test it is. Should be interesting, please share.

Second, if you read the doc I posted earlier in this thread (as I have in previous threads on this topic), it is a section out of an SAE paper that discusses how zddp plates out in an engine, the point is that the film thickness will only get so thick, no matter how much zddp is in the oil. That seems to be a point that no one is grasping, even the cam guys. Once the maximum thickness is achieved any remaining zddp in the oil only serves to replenish plated out zddp after it is worn off of wear surfaces. Whether you have 500ppm or 5000 ppm the thickness of the tribo film reaches the same thickness, no more. Extra levels of zddp are there in reserve IF NEEDED. If not needed it does nothing to prevent wear.

Beyond that zddp is extremely important in controlling wear, and as an anti-oxidant, don't kid yourself. It remains the #1 most important additive for wear control, despite the limits placed on it's content in engine oil. There are other additives that the industry has turned to trying to replace zddp, but all of the alternatives are either less efficient or more costly, or both. Some work synergistically with zddp to enhance it's performance, but zddp remains the top dog. However, as I've also posted many times, there are different compounds that are all known as zddp, but with different chemical structures, and they have differing performance regarding anti-wear; and they work with other compounds like boron and/or moly. It's difficult to asses an oil's performance just by reading a report of the spectrometric analysis, bench tests and field tests are needed for that. But I like to see standard industry tests used by oil additive companies and testing facilities like Southwest Research.

 

There's
of tests of different oils where a blade like object dragged across a rotating metal sample.This is supposed to be a valid test of the oil's ability to protect your engine's moving parts..
I believe the only valid test is data from actual running engines.

 

Tribologist

1. the study of friction, wear, lubrication, and the design of bearings; the science of interacting surfaces in relative motion.

The article I suggested everyone read in Hot Rod magazine was written by Lake Speed Jr who is a "Tribologist" , and works for Total Seal Piston Rings and conducts seminars on lubrication and wear of components. He is a former professional racer, and well recognized in professional automotive circles and writes for Engine Builder magazine as well as other free lance articles for magazines like Hot Rod.
Anyone searching for him on the internet will find it easy to see his footprint as a former racer as well as his broad knowledge of lubrication applications and wear.

https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/oil-analysis-with-lake-speed-jr-mbca-peachtree-689298

Working with Tony Stewart .......
https://twitter.com/lspeedjr?lang=en

Be sure to look at this last one if you want honest info about how many versions of ZDDP are available. Really good stuff......

https://themotorhood.com/themotorhood/2017/8/14/all-about-oil-lake-speed-jr-breaks-it-down

Yes, he does have ties to a particular brand of oil, but he doesn't even mention them in the article in Hot Rod.

I think his accomplishments, education and experience speak for themselves as far as being an authority on ZDDP and lubrication.

 

I think the bigger problem is, who are you going to talk to that cares! What are they going to do? Send you another box of bad lifters? Credit you? In the end you have the same problem. I have quality problems quite a bit with parts that I get at work. There’s nobody to call, there’s nobody that cares, you just have to deal with the shitty product anymore unfortunately.

 

Gotta be pretty slick to participate in this topic.

All this heavy lifting and research is largely just personal thirst for knowledge or entertainment. We know too many new cams are fucked up garbage now but the average enthusiast likely doesn't know or have the tools needed to read tapers and crowns and metallurgy, let alone the molecular structure of what oil he needs to try breaking it in. Is there an answer? Yes. Get a basic knowledge of what's needed, preferably in places like this where many have done the heavy lifting (wrenches and reading) and have the will to share their wealth of knowledge. I use diesel oil in the old exaggerated farm implements that most of the vintage engines are. 2 decades, no fails, but none of them hold the current lap record at Laguna Seca either so there's that.

Back on track I predict the cam that started this and the used cam it was replaced with will be info that lives on and helps. Still I think heavy reading is easier than heavy lifting, and sometimes prevents excess use of the latter. Just sayin...

 

One question that always bugs me about cam and lifter failure is.............

If all the lifters are ground on the same machine(s) and all of them are the same alloy from the same manufacturer...........and all the lobes on the camshaft are ground by the same wheel.........

Why don't all the lifters and lobes fail instead of just one or two?

 

Yeah, I'm a tribologist too, probably with more experience. I also belong to the STLE, and earned my CLS in 2005, and I hold several other industry recognized credentials, such as Oil Monitoring Analyst, Certified Machinery Lubrication Technician II, as well as Certified Lubrication Analyst; and over 2 decades in the field. He also works with Joe Gibbs Oil/Driven. Think that might bear on his opinions? He is not a chemist or oil formulator. BTW, this is Jr we're talking about here, not Sr; did he ever have a profesional racing career?

 

BTW, declaring that an argument is correct based on the credentials of the person making it is known as a logical fallacy, i.e Appeal To Authority.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Authority

 

As far as I know he worked as part of some Nascar crews before moving diverting into specializing in oil. Now he is the representative for a ring manufacturer and works directly with not only Nascar teams but other racing teams. He makes his living interacting and working with people using the most advanced technology in engine development.I'd consider anyone doing that as having a career in racing.

Information below added by Editing....

Blues4U quote: BTW, declaring that an argument is correct based on the credentials of the person making it is known as a logical fallacy.

Again you are simply looking for the negative rather than being openminded. The point isn't that HE knows all these people.........The point is that all these well known people who work at high levels of racing technology KNOW HIM.....because he is a good source of information for them. He would not have a great reputation with them if he was putting out incorrect information and was not a good source for them. It not too difficult to see the benefit of aquiring knowledge from someone on the cutting edge of development rather than some one who works with similar products used in an industrial engine or maybe machinery.


The attachment below shows the kind of people he interacts with on a daily basis and who he exchanges information with. Pretty doubtful that people at this high level of professional engine development and racing would know him and work with him if he didn't know what he was talking about. These are luminaries of the motorsport world, and he's on a first name basis with them. He has also made lots of professionally filmed videos on various oil related topics and wear. I'd say his credentials are second to no one. Scan the site below and look at all the knowledgeable professionals he works with.

Ed Iskenderian,John Kasse,Jeff Smith, Ben Strader,Billy Godbold,QMP Racing Engines, Warren Johnson, Mark Cronquist (Nascar Engine Builder), just to name only a few of them

Open the tab below and then click on "more posts" to see lots of pics

https://www.instagram.com/p/CjZDTZHsEDm/?hl=en

 

There's another guy, Joe Knowes, who knows this guy everyone called "No Nose" because he burned out his sense of smell. So No Nose and Joe Knowes knows a race team called "Big Hose" cuz they use a lotta N20, and those 2 think it makes them pals. But Big Hose says Joe Knowes and No Nose ain't bros, and doesn't like that they go where he goes, in fact he says that blows. In fact No Nose owes Big Hose for some fuel hose and Joe Knowes acts like he never knows where No Nose is. So, Joe Knowes knows No Nose owes for hose to Big Hose Racing, who thinks it blows that they call themselves bros to Big Hose, who now doesn't want them to know where he goes, yet has to stay on his toes if he wants to collect what No Nose owes for the hose. Where this goes, nobody knows. Or Knowes, or Nose, or...

 

Thank you.
You chose not to use prose about those bro's, but it doesn't help with how oil flows.... Who knows??? Just shows....
Some perspective about arguing on the internet.
And, you just made my day........

 

That's very simple, lack of quality control and getting product out the shipping door.

You think they really care? Once you buy it and install it, it is yours.

If you can take the time to degree it in, you can take the time to check the parts for correct machining. If it comes in a white box with a fortune cookie, send it back.

There is only one way to determine if the oil(s) is working, and that is with an oil analysis. If bad report, you go into the motor.

"I have been using xxx for fifty years and haven't had a problem, it will be FINE!"

Glad my hip boots are right next to me.

 

Its kinda funny that all of this diatribe started out from a simple suggestion that people might want to read a magazine article written by a well known and respected authority on the subject......and maybe learn something in the process.
When people have to make their point by personal insinuation rather than factually discussing the information, there is no sense in providing them with information.

Pardon me for trying to be helpful........... Those of you who wish to learn can read the thread below which I originally posted on #162. It even has info related to cam/lifter failure, as well as no nonsense information about oil selection and ZDDP. Those of you who already know everything should just skip it and stick your heads where ever you had them before this thread started.

https://themotorhood.com/themotorhood/2017/8/14/all-about-oil-lake-speed-jr-breaks-it-down

 

here we go again....

 

Well it's because we got into diatribe about the molecular ingredients of oil instead of whether or not to flop a used broken in cam into an engine that ate a new junk cam, and the likelyhood that oil had nothing to do with it. Clearly the case, he's running fine now. Or maybe he'll run better if he reads HOT ROD magazine's input. Whatcha think...

 

Go on YouTube and search “Powell Machine lifters” He made a new video two days ago that is very interesting. The short version of it is, they have been seeing some extremely poor quality machining on many brand new lifters.

 

Instead of trying to impress everyone with your negative witticisms, why don't you explain what the problem is and exactly how they should go about correcting it? You seem to know everything but the solution. Looking at your earlier posts, other than basic mechanical suggestions, you haven't shown us your vast knowledge of lubricating oils........other than to say "I use diesel oil in the old exaggerated farm implements that most of the vintage engines are. 2 decades, no fails, " Thats your basis for criticizing my attempt to provide information written by a recognized expert........recognized by the cutting edge people in motor racing.

The one thing you said that made sense was:

Well,Thats exactly what I did, try to share an article written by a leading expert on the use and selection of oil. You don't seem to grasp the fact that talking about who Lake Speed Jr works with and for isn't "name dropping" but simply pointing out that people who work on the cutting edge of technology in automotive racing of all kinds work with this man. If you don't see the significance of his access to people & technology that "create" the newest parts and lubrication, then perhaps you should pay more attention to information thats got some worth rather than wasting everyones time with Glib insinuations . At least I try to offer information that has some technical value. In case you haven't noticed, I post lots of old magazine articles on here in order to help people. Most are well received. The bottom line is that everyone is an adult and can read any of them and decide for themselves whether they agree with what is said. If anyone thinks a specific article or statement is in error, then address that statement along with data to support your view. Just sitting on the sidelines and throwing nonsensical comments out doesn't help anyone....


To the OP: One thing you may/may not be aware of is that engine assembly lube isn't the same as cam lube.
It may work ok in many cases, but the cam lube is the reccomended choice. That said, obviously lube selection will not help if a part is defective. The point simply is that either an oiling problem or a defective part problem can cause a failure. Since there isn't always a way to verify a part is defective, all someone can do is control the things (oil for one) which they can control and then hope for the best.

 

You're 100% correct. For you at least. I'm easy to look up and even easier to sort out what I do. I also admit and have admitted in the past that I'm basically a dick. "There's one in every crowd" sometimes applies to me. In proper context I'm having fun and hopefully sharing that fun with those who, like me, don't take too much of this shit too serious. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

 

Sometimes we all say and write things that aren't worded as well as they could be, or that aren't taken in the context that we meant them. In the long run I think we are all pretty decent people and no hard feelings on my end. I know you also contribute some good information on here as well. Suppose I can be a "dick" sometimes as well.........but I try to be a well meaning dick. Anyway, hope you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year as well.........

 

headache !