Technical Antifreeze shenanigans

Last night I had a long discussion with some friends on antifreeze.
I was amazed how many opposite opinions I heard on something that should have a pretty straight answer.

Ethylene, propylene, organic, inorganic, silicates, long life, distilled, non-distilled, bolt in zinc anodes andwhatnot.

Some say propylene based doesn't kill your bearings, when it gets into the oil, but it kills your seals on older engines (also silicone form-a-gasket stuff).
Some say distilled/demineralized water is corrosive and eats your engine, others say tap water makes deposits and scaling, and that some instructions say to use distilled water.

Everybody says they did this or that for 150 years (pretty much every possible combination) and never had a problem at all,
than the mechanics chime in and tell stories about leaking disasters with a certain orange type of antifreeze, they had to fix all the time etc.

The information you can find online is also all over the place and it's a mess.

I'm not a chemist, all I know for sure is that you should not mix different types, since they may gel.
On my daily drivers (most of the time 10-20 year old cars) I actually never gave it much thought. Always used the recommended type and tap water and called it a day. Also never had a problem with that. Maybe that means it's not THAT critical at the end of the day - who knows?

Can someone with more knowledge please shine some light on this?

I'm having a 41 Chevy with a hopped up 261 - iron block and head, but aluminum intake (water heated) and a radiator with brass parts.
It's a mixed bag of metals. Also sometimes our winters get pretty cold, so just Water Wetter doesn't do the trick.
Distilled/demineralized water or tap water? Organic/inorganic? Ethylene, propylene, silicates free?

And what's the deal with those anodes? Do I just throw a piece of magnesium in the radiator?

thanks, Frank

 

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/please-school-me-on-antifreeze.1003131/
Pretty comprehensive discussion in this thread about coolants and yes it seems to be a touchy subject with some folks for whatever reason
I still run predominantly ethelyene glycol but have all cast iron components except for the copper radiator. I believe that the IAT and OAT coolants are superior in applications where aluminum is present...until convinced otherwise
I also test the coolant and maintain the pH and additave package with SCA (supplimental coolant additives) to extend the life of the coolant....

 

Lots of variables. The mineral content of local water varies greatly, so the local tap water may be OK - maybe not. When in doubt use distilled water. With mixed aluminium and steel parts an anode is a good move. Many options to be found at some auto parts places, but many more at a marine store. Style depends a lot on the room you have to work with. I am not fond of the one stuck off a radiator cap and prefer the ones attached to a brass plug. Also having a good ground wire on both the engine block and the radiator helps. As to what type of antifreeze, I think old ethylene glycol seems to work just fine in older stuff.

 

I live in NJ and just drained the water out of flathead last night for fear of freezing even in my garage.

I've been using de-ionized water and a product called No-Rosion. Took a peak at the block and it was clean a whistle inside so the No-Rosion seems to work as advertised.

https://www.no-rosion.com/
https://www.no-rosion.com/norosioncoolant.htm

 

I live in Germany, which became pretty much a third world country in the last 30 years, when it comes to everything engine and car related - so no NAPA or something even close, where you could buy stuff like that. All I can get is heavy duty diesel coolant that has quite a SCA package included.

Thanks for the link

Frank

 

You know eggs are bad for you. So is too much bread. And stay away from butter. Sometimes too much info can drive a person crazy. Just be consistent on what you use. Don`t go for the cheapest stuff you can find. Keep it leveled off and check the freezing level with a tester. If you are worried, just drain it every year or two. If you don`t like the way it looks, just change brands.

 

OAT, organic acid technology coolants, think the old GM bright orange dexcool, do not get along with the solder in our old radiators, ironically it’s kind of hard on aluminum and plastic which led to us doing intake gaskets on many gm products over the years. Most modern coolants are HOAT, hybrid organic acid technology, kind of the best of the old green inorganic coolant and OAT coolants combined. I personally use the “universal” coolant and tap water in everything

 

The best water to run in your cooling system is soft water...If you are going to run distilled or D-ionized water always mix it with antifreeze because it has anti-corrosive additives...I use to run a Demineralizer in the mine I worked at and it made pure water....One of the guys put it in his 4 cylinder aluminum motor and in about 4 hours the water ate a hole in his block...

 

Really good info here.... https://www.norosion.com/tech_coolant.htm

 

Have a problem with the "soft water" idea. So, you're going to run water that has been through a water softener that uses salt, and as far as I know they all do. Salt doesn't play well with carbon steel or aluminum.

 

Regular old green Prestone works for me. Or Peak if they don't have Prestone. Plain city water.

 

Now that you mention it, a stumbled over that site a few years ago, but totally forgot about it.
Not much information or reviews out there (compared to WaterWetter and PurpleIce - wich is also made by the same company as No-Rosion by the way), but quite an interesting Q&A on their site that answers a lot of my questions.

Frank

 

Would water from a dehumidifier work better.

 

The water softeners use salt in an Ion exchange to remove calcium and magnesium which causes cooling systems to scale up.... That was the main makeup water for our steam plant and we used more water than an automotive radiator system...It is also a good idea to use a Zinc anode...Used that in the steam plant....Been involved with steam plant for 20 years and my cars never seen rust or scale...

 

Not cheap. Anybody have any experience with it?

 

As I understand it, the salt in water softener systems is only used to clean the medium that pulls the minerals out of the water, then it is flushed down the drain. Any sodium content in the water should be miniscule.

 

My grand paw , was a old 50 s GM mechanic and said only use rain water , it is the cleanest water you can find ???

 

I’ve posted this before .

find out what water comes out of your tap, if it’s soft water with no or minimal mineral content just use that .

if it’s hard water then use distilled .

I use plain old regular green glycol , drain and fill the rad every year .

I put maybe 10,000 km on my ride per season . So for the cost of a jug or 2 of coolant I drain the rad and refill , basically 1/2 a cooling system flush every year .

I have never had an issue with any of my cars .


I had a 69 Lincoln that the cooling system was brown and full of sludge , I pulled the t/stat and drained it took the water pump off and all the easy (frost , welsh, casting , blanking ) what ever you would like to call them plugs and pressure washed as best I could the block , rad and heater core , then drained and filled the rad everyday at work when I pulled in , in the morning until it was finally crystal clear . ( took about 2 weeks )

then filled it with plain old green glycol and a bottle of water wetter , never had an issue with it snd every season when I would drain the rad it was clean coolant coming out .


My point . Unless it’s severve duty or fancy race parts don’t over think it .


The sacrificial anode is cheap insurance so I would use one if I got my hands on one .

 

My dad used Prestone antifreeze and mixed it to the instructions on the jug. He never had a radiator or heater core issue. He changed it out about every 3 years. I followed suit using and mixing Prestone until the premixed Prestone came along. I have had 20 year old vehicles and never had an antifreeze issues using Prestone. My friend had a intake manifold leak on his Chev truck. Dexcool is a different animal and I do not know if it is still the same formula.The dealer said that was a first but on my friends research found there was a lot of Dexcool issues with it eating through gaskets. I got slack on changing the Dexcool in my Chev truck. The dealer said that I had an antifreeze leak and would need a water pump. I ordered a water pump and gasket then changed them to find that the pump was fine but there was a pin hole eaten through the gasket to cause a weep. I had a new pump in hand so I put it on so I would not have to change a pump down the road.
This is Prestone's instruction for mixing the antifreeze and it is likely their formula has antioxidants in it to offset using distilled water. Distilled water would help avoid scaling from waterborne minerals. https://www.prestone.com.ph/product/prestone-longlife-coolant-concentrate

 

The salt doesn’t go in to the water. The salt is used to clean the resin bed.

 

I just use 50:50 mix of antifreeze/and distilled water. I switched to distilled water about ten years ago because of something I read on one of those dreaded forums! LOL. Around here we have very soft water so I think I’ll go back to that. Only chemicals in our water is a tiny bit of chlorine.

I cannot understand anyone buying premixed as you’re paying for half a jug of water, unless your tap water is quite hard. Even still, a jug of distilled water is cheap.

 

I go with auto parts store like Car Quest AF and distilled water, any drug store has it. I use an anode too since I have aluminum heads, intake, etc.

 

I heard those anodes only work in "line of sight" i.e. rather local. I understand that I f you hang one in your radiator, it does nothing for the intake.

Not sure if this is true though.

Frank

 

The brine tank in a water softener system has salt and water. That brine is drawn into the media tank periodically to refresh the salt ions lost and remove (flush) contaminates that may have passed through a pre-filter.

The salt in that brine is used to renew the salt ions that have been depleted used to exchange with calcium ions. So yes, a water softener does leave salt in the water. It has to be filtered through a reverse osmosis system to be pure.

That is why they developed pre-mix as the water is ionized and the coolant chemically balanced to deal with modern cooling systems. The same will apply to an older engine with aluminum components added.

Distillation (if done properly) will not remove all contaminants, especially calcium (it will reduce the calcium).

ELECTROLYSIS is the key word here.

 

They don't add salt to the water they add sodium.

 

There is a lot of misinformation out there as far as antifreeze/coolant goes.
You can bet a few of the "I ain't gonna put antifreeze in my car because it makes the engine run hotter" brigade in southern states will be posting on what to do about their cracked blocks in the next couple of weeks when they discover that pure water or water with just an additive froze in the cold snap.
As far as tap water goes. That depends entirely on the local tap water or your aquifer that your well draws from. I lived in a house about 10 miles from where I am now that would have minerals build up in the water heater in about a year and a half and you would have to pull the bottom element out and dig white gravel out of the tank for an hour or so. Put a new element in and go for anouther year and a half. If you set a pot of water on the stove and there is white residue after you boil water in it such as having a pot of water on top of a wood stove you can bet that same water will cause a build up in your cooling system. The same reason a lot of old radiators that you look in have white deposits on the tops of the tubes .
As far as any coolant eating your engine bearings if it gets in the oil, if coolant gets in the oil you are screwed anyhow and that is the least of your worries.

I agree with buying a known quality brand rather than some of the discount house stuff. The disco9unt stuff won't freeze but may not have the proper lubrication additives and some may not work great with aluminum if you have a lot of aluminum pieces in the cooling system.

 

I just got home from the radiator shop, Gerald was flushing Brenda's Magnam wagon, we are looking at below zero temps tonight, I hate cold weather, but this is insane cold, one of you Canadian guys must have left to door open! HRP

 

I think the thing with tap water is the large variation in the quality of the water from different locations. Since the OP is in Germany, I have no idea whether they have "good" water coming from their taps.

 

You're kidding, right?



We have nothing to do?

You don't use city or raw well water in a cooling system (or drink it).

You have no idea of what is in it unless you have an analysis done.

Most systems use chlorine, plenty of it. If it is nasty intake or bad piping, they now chase it with ammonia. Don't even mention fluoride.

 

Welp, I fill my cooling systems and drink the water out of my well untreated. Damnit, one more thing I didn’t realize I wasn’t supposed to do.