So say you do somehow get the early tail and recreate the rest to the earliest configuration. Who at that point has the "real" Emory Collins car? A fraction of the early car would be incorporated into the museum car and a fraction would be on your car.
Well, things do tend to get muddy dealing with old race cars, though this particular car is a bit more straightforward than most! Between major changes, crashes, and just plain obsolescence, lots of cars changed pretty regularly. And, of course, I suppose it depends who you ask! AACA certifies old race cars, and they consider the section of frame where the driver sits as what is necessary for a restoration. However, this wasn't always the case and as I understand it was changed largely due to the efforts of one particular collector for whom this rule change allowed several of his cars to be certified. Whether this is the best way, I dunno. There has to be some kind of consensus on these things, and the AACA way is as good as any I suppose. In this case, I've come across a few other bits that to my mind help tell the story. Amongst the Earl Fabritz research material is a list of Emory's cars either written by Emory, or perhaps dictated by Irene or Earl from Emory's recollections. This list shows a 1936 255 Offy car and a 1946 318 Offy car as separate. One could perhaps see the 318 as the defining change here, however, the 318 was installed after the '37 season. That list and the frame change are enough for me, but I also found a little blurb in National Auto Racing News 8-27-1942 mentioning Collins 'new streamlined creation' likely due to the new headrest tail, though it may have had the new frame by that late in '42, I don't know. I do have quite a bit more material to cover, including the ledger kept covering the income and expenses related to racing between late 1935 and Collins' retirement. I am hopeful there is stuff in there that will help nail down the timeline as well. So, having said all that, to put it simply, I think it's reasonable to say the '36-to-wartime car and the post-war car can be considered two different cars.
Was the flat tail ever on the frame/car that the museum has or was that just on your earlier frame. If so it seems kinda sad that they wouldn’t let it go in some kinda trade deal But I’ve never dealt with a museum, I can imagine it’s rather frustrating as I’m sure there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen
I once had good luck* with getting "extras" from a museum, but I knew one of the directors personally. Maybe if you can spend time with them and show them your care and research about reuniting the proper parts, you could convince them too. *I was able to buy hundreds of very old Hot Rod, RnC, Hop Up, and many other titles of hot rod and custom magazines from a museum of transportation. I paid $200 and probably saved them from languishing in the dark for the rest of their time. I filled many holes in my collection, sold some, and gave others away.
Hey, Carter; FWIW, the way I'd handle the "real" car or "original" car Q is like this, which is a modified version of what you'e thinking. Yours would be the early car, & the museums' the later car. No skulduggery here, nor intent to deceive, nor even to recreate an "air-car". 'Way I see it, there's nothing competitive, 1-upmanship, nor subversive about any of this. In essence, even though parts crossed both cars sorta back-n-forth, there are two actual sets of rails, tails, & engines, among others. One of the things shared was the same owner & a longish "continuation" of build/modify/rebuild. You are quite correct on the idea that these should be considered two completely separate cars. Very few old race cars have the Provenance to have *all* the old orig parts put back onto them. I suspect that most restored racecars have parts = to the orig in mfg, appearance, & maybe function. Then there's proving the *all original* parts are just that - not how old race cars - or any of them for that matter - exist. Or existed. Parts were routinely installed, broken, fixed, repaired, replaced, modified, swapped-out, updated, upgraded - all to go faster, or even just to go, so's racing of any kind could be done. & then parted-out, discarded, or set-out-in-the-back-40 after they were obsolete(Read: noncompetitive, & not worth any $$$ either). Damn-near nobody had the $$$ & space to keep *every* orig part & just upgrade/update as needed, much less carry all kinds of spares. & then restore the car for "posterity". Wasn't done back then... Wasn't even a concept... BTW, having both cars, early & late, by the same owner + the cars themselves & the parts-changing story being displayed; that might make a good point(s) for helping to get the museum to help you out w/the tail, & hopefully any other correct parts for the early version. & to correct the later cars' appearance, too. & you, &/or they, have the paperwork to prove this. Some kinda serious Cool! Then when displayed side-by-side, the historical interest factor goes up by more than just 2. Seriously, the last time this effect was displayed, was when, exactly? I doubt even speedybills would have something like this. Marcus...
I wondered if you 'offered' to display your rails - with their tail - next to their car. To tell the story of the progress from early to late & your story of how you aquired the rails & then how you identified them. Then perhaps what you are looking for??
Such a cool piece of history! And doing the research seems to be as fun as building the car....just for laughs...2 newb stories: my first hot rod was an Essex sedan turned into a truck...when purchased it had the Essex frame rails with it...with only street rod knowledge I promptly decided to find a rolling frame and left them behind...ended up using a '60's o/t mini truck frame and kicking myself in the ass for years Years later with a bit more knowledge (ya right!) collecting model A parts I found an ad offering 2 model A rads for $30 a piece armed with $60 I drove out to the farm and made the deal whilst there I asked if there were any other model A parts around he says "no but I have another rad" comes out with this really cool ovalish grille w honeycomb rad...so I knew it was old...but it wasn't Ford so I passed...turns out it was the much coveted Willys/Whippet grille/rad ....$30! DOH!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Don't feel bad we all make mistakes. My two major ones were selling old race cars WITHOUT doing the research on their history.
We do what we do with what we have at the time. Hindsight often suggests there was another way out...
Everything I ever parted with went for what I wanted at the time, and both parties were happy. I got to cover an expense at the time, and may have a photo somewhere to bring back a good memory.
Yep. The challenge is to live with memories & the blessing of owning special things & not the curse of regrets.
Very cool. Thanks for the help. I notice the down bars from B pillar engine cage and the tube for steering bearing are different on mine Charging station sur la home
Marcus is absolutely correct about how race cars evolve. Having owned, built, and raced, Midwestern dirt cars for 20 years, I can testify that almost no one built a new car every year unless less the old one had been damaged beyond repair or was no longer competitive. Everyone was looking for "an edge", but very few could afford to build a new car just to experiment. Racers are great "borrowers" of new ideas or technology. A racecar almost never remained unmodified for its entire competitive life. To attempt to "save" a competition vehicle, you have to choose a point in time and attempt to restore it to its original condition on that date. This thread is a perfect example of the lengths that a true preservationist will go to in order to save a piece of history. My hat comes off to your dedication. We are all indebted to you. Roy
Museum's have little or no money. They rely on donations and fund raisers. The money donated is in trust. It is difficult for a museum to deaccession parts of a collection as this could be seen as violating that trust. Most small museums are so underfunded they are lucky they keep the lights on. You are fortunate to find an original example to help with a restoration project.
You bring up a tale as old as time, the following is the transcript of the legal case that sets forth what guides the answers to your question: https://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html skip towards the end to the section called "classification", that will help.
it is kinda crazy how little detail can exist, and then how much. Also the very existence of a race car and what that actually means.
Still getting my head around what it means here, A friend has a similar situation, except he's back dating a car different engine & body, but now if he copy's the chassis he will have 2 cars - ish The earlier being more significant, the later still 'known'
Going to loosely retell a story of a C jag. Will call it C202, which was a nasty wreck and broken up. One gentlemen gets a large pile of chassis and body parts, then proceeds to rebuild and call his car C202. Another gentleman gets the engine and rear axle, and proceeds to build C202. The last gentleman gets the transmission, and proceeds to call his new Jaguar C type "C202". You can see the egos and complexities involved. (and $€£¥). The one that makes me sad, will be when the Ono is cut up. Let's say I was lucky enough to be able to purchase the radiator body / gas tank and engine. Then, somehow squirrel together enough bits to re-create a double chain drive chassis, would I be able to say that I now owned the "Ono"? Like the Bentley in the case documented above, the Ono has never left the public eye. The continuous nature of the history of that race car makes doing the above difficult, as the breaking can not be hidden. The same would apply to your friend who is trying to create two cars out of one. There was a gentleman over in England for number of years who specialized in breaking early Benz velos, he would buy one break it apart, jumble everything around in a giant pile, and suddenly have three cars. But that was all done behind closed doors. In short, it is a long complex rabbit hole.
The reverse of this situation happened at Pebble Beach 2022. The winning Best in Show Duesenberg was scattered to the winds and the major components wound up in different Duesenberg's. Three cars had to be bought to collect all the original numbers matching parts to assemble the winning car as it was when delivered new.
@Carter and @Pete Eastwood: These chrome rails look to have been stamped, rather than fabricated... At such an early date, (1920s) were there facilities other than major car mfrs. that had access to machines for such operations? I had to fab a pair at my shop in the '70s. Deuce rails were being stamped ('Just a Hobby' et al) at the time...
Miller designed a dirt track car & the blueprints were made available to other car builders. The series of prints were designated "DT 220" Dirt Track 220. I have copies of the frame & body prints. The frame rails blanks were cut out, then the straight sections were done on a press brake. The kickups were hand hammered over cast iron bucks! there are prints of the frame blanks, prints for the pattern for making the kickup bucks etc. If you look at the rails closely, a couple of small, short welds will show up in a few places. I restored a "Clyde Adams" built car. I had the frame chemically dipped, instead of sandblasting, so I could see details that would have been lost to the sandblasting. In the kick up area, you could see the hammer marks, but they were so concentrated & well done, that they were visible, but you couldn't feel them ! Here is that car.
Thanks much, Pete. I didn't think about a 'hard buck', had read about the use of them some years back, never put it together! (different application at that time of my life!) I hadn't imagined a press brake either, as the upturns would have been interruptive. Pretty crafty, as the inner radii are indiscernible.. Thanks for the response, finished car is a stunner.
No, nope, just used as an example of the how 2 historical identities can exist in the same car. And that separately that may both be able to continue, though one as a mere shadow. Think I need to find another example to work with. Sorry. QUOTE="Pete Eastwood, post: 14863697, member: 158453"]Fur Biscuit, What . . . the ONO is being cut up ? Say it ain't so![/QUOTE]
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