I guess I just have a hard time using something that the manufacturer doesn’t recommend. Now that Rotella has changed I guess I’ll be looking at Castrol.
I just did an in-car rear main seal swap-out in my Falcon. It has only ever had VR-1 in it, changed every 5,000 miles (and last week, off-interval). I have driven it 22,571 miles since the engine was built. The cylinders still show cross-hatch. The bearings (checked two main, and two rod) appear as brand-new. Compression is within 2psi of right after break-in, and that could be because atmospheric pressure was lower (cold rainy day, versus hot sunny day). There is a rare earth magnet in the bottom of the pan. It was clean. There was no residue in the pan. I have seen my results, and they are good enough for me to continue using it.
Someone made a comment about detergents and additives in diesel engine oils, that there are more of them than in gasoline engine oils. This is correct. But IMO professional experience this is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Those detergents and dispersants keep the engine clean internally, and they neutralize acids and corrosives that develop in the oil due to reactions from high temperatures and from blowby g***es that otherwise would attack the soft metals in the engine. There is thinking out there that the detergents will compete with the zddp for space on the wear parts, leading to accelerated wear. This is misleading, that doesn't happen. Zddp plates out on wear points in an engine, there is no compe***ion with detergents for space in these points inside an engine. The wear points are where 2 or more parts come into contact, or would come into contact if there was no oil film to keep them seperated. The bonding action of detergents as they go about their business of cleaning the interior surfaces is not that strong, they will not survive in these wear points; the zinc will. The bonding action of zinc is compartively very strong vs detergents. As the zddp molecules in the oil film that exists between the wear points heats up the compounds degrade into a gl*** like structure that plates out on the heated metal surfaces and forms a protective layer. There is no compe***ion with detergents here, please get that out of your head. Whoever told you that is wrong. Think about it, do you think Caterpillar and ***mins and all the other diesel engine OEM's would be OK with accelerated wear? Do you think this is not an important consideration for them? Diesel engine oils must p*** a full battery of tests in order to earn API licensing for the current service cl***ification (CK-4), including tests that measure for anti-wear performance. One of those tests is specifically for ***mins B series engines that still use flat tappets. I don't know how to convince you that wear is very important for the engine OEM's and for owners of these engines. I would think it would be self evident, these engines are routinely expected to exceed a million miles, or over 20,000 hours of use before 1st overhaul. Anti-wear performance is every bit as important for these engines as it is for any gasoline engine.
I believe the concern is that the lack of adequate detergents will lead to lacquers deposits and sludge build up in engines whose owners have over extended the drain intervals. If you change the oil frequently this probably isn't a problem.
Looks like my post about Rotella was removed, let me retry, maybe this one won't get taken down. Of course Rotella has changed over the years, but it has gotten better. The current T4 version of the product still carries ~1200 ppm of zinc. It is now a synthetic blend, mixing a blend of synthetic and non-synthetic base oils; what the percentage of each are is unknown, probably the tech advisers at Shell don't have that info themselves. But if you have been a happy satisfied user of Rotella for a long time you can safely continue to use it today, the oil is better than ever. And just to be clear, I'm not advocating Rotella, I don't work for Shell, and I don't use it myself, I'm just trying to clear up misconceptions about it, or someone changing away from it because they read something here that scared them from using it. If previous versions of that product worked for you, the current version is even better.
There are a lot of decent oils out there. Rotella is one for example. Good quality oil, good quality parts and proper set up and break in are key. Its a funny thing and most of the people reading this may take offense at what I am going to say. My father in law made his living in sales as long as I knew him, automotive parts and services. He always told me the same thing, "Never take the advice of someone trying to sell you something. Find out for yourself." The reason I bring this up is that whenever I see one of these posts, not just oil, I see a lot of information posted that is put out there by vendors. Instead of using that info perhaps try and find out from someone not trying to sell you something. OK now I have hurt someone's feelings. Like I started out to say, lots of good quality oil out there, Rotella is one of them.
Well - one of the problems with diesel oil is, that the kind of ZDDPs in it are different than for a gas engine. Those ZDDPs are way slower reacting (longer molecular chains) and need higher temperatures to be activated than in gas engine oils. So the blend of long and short chain primary and secondary ZDDPs in a modern diesel oil is nothing like the short chain only secondary in a gas engine oil. So with modern diesel oil, you only get about half the wear protection of a short chain secondary only gas engine oil, with the same total ZDDP levels. When it comes to the dispersant/detergents package of diesel oils - it's different, cause diesel engines generate soot, and that needs to be taken care of. That package doesn't really "compete" with the ZDDP, but it slows down how fast the ZDDP reacts (or get's activated if you will). ZDDP is not just sitting on the surfaces, it has to be build up all the time, since it get's wiped away with every rotation, and needs to be build up again. So the higher your RPM, the less time the ZDDP has. Now if you have a additive package that slows down that process, things get worse. Diesel engines get away with it, since they seldom see high RPM. Also the anti foaming agents are different for the same reason - lower RPM. If you have a diesel oil that also says SP on the label (like a mixed fleet oil), you are fine though, since it has to p*** all the p***enger car tests and is formulated accordingly. Bottom line: there is no easy answer - as always , it depends.
Why bother with all the postulating & conjecture if there's no conclusion or recommendations ??? Would have been far simpler to say nothing or I don't know ..
I'm a VR-1 guy. The Willys in my avatar has a 289 Ford that I have put on close to 90,000 miles- 12 years as a near daily driver. Gets changed at 3,000 miles. No issues.
The number one selling midrange diesel engine in the country still has flat tappers in it. This is the ISB ***mins and it uses mushroom tappets. This engine has used the same tappet design since its inception in the mid eighties and there are literally millions out there in trucking, agriculture, stationery power, etc. I’ve been a diesel mechanic for 32 years and have never seen a flat cam on a B ***mins. I’ve said all that, to say this, 15w-40 oil HAS to be configured to work with flat tappets-period. Not just Rotella, but all brands. I use Connoco/Phillips All Fleet because it’s what we use at work and don’t have camshaft or any other internal engine problems.
In our fleet of school buses at work, 35 of them are 2014 Chevrolet 6.0L vans, and the LS is one of the toughest engine made, we have changed out 4 roller cams due to lobe wear or roller wear, and have a fifth waiting on parts, that's more that $1500 dollars worth of parts for each motor. I say this because in all these oil threads, someone always says, put a roller in and forget it! That's not always the case, there are plenty of bad rollers are out there. I can buy a lot of Penn Grade oil for $1500 !
I can quote on the diesel oil in OT engines. I work my OT trucks. When I was younger I lost a roller lifter after a hard day of working, after that all my engines get delo 15/40. Never had a problem since.
I’m just curious why they won’t answer my question. Years ago when they switched to T4 they answered me right away. Yes it has 1200 parts ZDDP and yes it’s perfect for flat tappet engines. This time I’ve been sent to three different departments, the last being the tech. dept. I got a case number and was told a reply is coming. This is the email I received a day or two later. “Think Secure. This email is from an external source.”WTF? Nothing since. I have used Rotella for years with no problems. It just made me think I’m getting the run around.
We use Delo 15/40 in our circle track engines, change twice during a full season of racing. We’ve broken engine parts but never one caused by oil. Flat tappet iron Cams and lifters have never shown wear ever. 7200 on the straights and 5500 in the corners on and off the throttle.
There is a blog I checked out not long ago from a guy that’s a mechanical engineer and has been testing oils for years. His data shows the Zinc/ZDDP deal is a myth. He’s ranks oils by testing for both friction and wear and other tests as well and some of the high ZDDP oils do not come close to some of the newer lower ZDDP level oils. Take it for what you like I’ve heard others say that when they cut the zinc they changed the package and they are just as good as before??? I donno? but I know I’m not buying into all the flat cams because of that or because of improper breaking in. I think this primarily based on there is usually only 1 or 2 lobes wiped out as opposed to like 12. it would seem to me if it was bad oil or failed procedure you would see it on many more lobes??? Just my personal theory, I know…. I run Synthetic in all my stuff and send samples off to Blackstone. I do annual changes and have never had a sample come back that says I needed a shorter interval. Anyway this is an interesting read but it’s quite long. Check it out https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Unless something has changed this guy refuses to disclose his testing methodology and has been called out on it numerous times. When testing if you refuse to share how your arrived at your conclusions they are meaningless.
Well this is all very good, except it's also all wrong, every bit of it. I wrote up a big long reply last night, but ended up deleting it before hitting the Post ****on. The last guy I replied to regarding all of this took it as a personal affront, he was insulted and ended up attacking me personally, even dogging me in other threads unconnected to this issue. I have no desire to piss off someone else. Just tell me, is this information coming from you, from your own knowledge and experience/education? Or are you repeating what you've read somewhere, like an article in Hot Rod magazine authored by Lake Speed Jr? This is almost verbatim wht he's claiming. Or, maybe you're in the business and this is what you believe to be correct based on your own personal experience. Which is it?
I would agree with this, it is pretty common in technical fields that people conduct studies, and then they write up reports/papers on their study, which includes all the processes and procedures they used, as well as all the results. Everything is presented and made available to the public (it may be behind a paywall, or you may need to have access through your business, school, or ***ociation, but it is available for everyone to read and research). This is how science is done, and how the state of the art is increased. Somebody else will conduct their own study, perhaps repeating what you did to confirm the results, or will design their own study based on your results to push the testing out beyond what you found out in your study. And this goes on and on and over the years the technology advances and the understanding advances, and everyone benefits. I've sat through presentations where authors presented their papers to a room of peers, and then they have to defend it when those in the room start asking questions. Usually it's all very proper and respectful; but I have seen it get brutal where I almost felt sorry for the guy(s) getting hammered by those in the audience picking apart their study/paper. The point is, if you keep your proccesses and procedures under wraps, and nobody is allowed to see what you're doing or how you're doing it, than your results are pretty much meaningless to everybody but yourself.
And you know all this how? What is your background? You ever work for a lubricants company or an additive company? What credentials do you have?
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