Technical Speaking of oil:) does it go stale/etc?

Is the HAMB really trying to talk somebody out of using genuine vintage oil for some modern foreign made oil.

 

And risk ; loose drain plug , stripped drain plug , loose oil filter , / oil filter leaks ,& last but not least , no oil , insufficient oil & oil of god knows what quality , plus all the " upselling" bullshit they try to do .

 

In the Helicopter turbine world. Mobile Jet II has a 5 year expiration date in 55gal drums. The old school 1 quart cans you still need a church key for has a 10 year shelf life. From the date of manufacture.

 

I have only been to a quick lube twice in the last decade. The first time they overtightened my filter to the point where it leaked (gasket was puckered), and my dad and I had a heck of a hard time getting it off.

The second time they "couldn't check the rear differential because the drain plus is rounded off." Guess who did that?

Two different places. No thanks, I'll do service myself.

 

I could easily see where a 1/2 full 55 gallon drum of oil sitting in a warehouse that sees temperature swings having a lot of water inside caused by condensation in 10 years, or even 5 years. That same barrel in a climate controlled building would be a different story, without temperature swings, the condensation would be greatly reduced. Its the fast change in the air temperature around the outside of the barrel that causes the condensation.

I could also see where oil sitting a long time could have additives drop out of suspension, but what that time frame is, and how much it would effect the quality of the oil might be questionable. Then one would have to consider just how much damage those changes in the oil quality would really effect the life of the motor. The biggest problem I see is that we really don't know which additives may be dropping out of suspension, or at what level, or how quickly, they are dropping out, or if there is even enough dropping out to be concerned about. I would suspect a motor that sees frequent oil changes, the effect of the degraded oil quality would have less effect then it would have on a motor that sees long oil change intervals.

I wouldn't put long shelf life oil in a motor in a race car or in one that may see a lot of abuse, but one that gets daily driven, or is a cruiser, may be game.

If in the worst case, the long shelf life oil could reduce the life of the motor by say 10,000 miles with a motor with a life expectancy of 200,000 miles, is that enough damage for most to be concerned about? If that worst case was a 50% reduction in the engine life, that could be a different story, if I was actually expecting to drive the vehicle lots of miles with the same motor in it. Which brings up another consideration, exactly how many miles do you expect to drive the vehicle, or how many miles do you expect get out of that brand new rebuilt motor for that car you care about? I guess this one falls under the "Do you feel lucky?" story line.

I do find the comparison about the lube in rear ends and manual transmissions compares to the lube in a motor interesting. Do you run 80/90 gear lube, or its synthetic replacement in your motor? Probably not running auto trans fluid in the motor either. Kind of a different lubricant, I think.

 

Things have changed since I first started driving trucks until now. First guy I worked for ran all Macks, the oil got changed twice a year, when we went on vacation in July, and at Christmas when were off for the Holidays! That was somewhere around 50,000 miles betweeen changes, unheard of back then, but we'd put a million miles on those Macks without any oil related engine problems.

When I became an owner operator and was responsible for all the upkeep of my equipment, I used the common recommendation of 15,000 miles between changes. As I bought newer trucks, the integral went up, first to 20,000, then 25,000, then the last one I had it had risen to 50,000 miles. Better manufacturing and better materials all played a part, but what really changed was when the EPA required the Sulphur content to be drastically reduced. Less junk in, less junk out, the purer fuel had less contaminates in it. Thats a big reason way fuel now is higher priced than regular gas, it has to be refined to a higher level. In return, the cleaner fuel helped the oil to last longer and the engines, too. But the ever tightening emissions requirements required diesels to start using EGR, putting more soot back into the oil, which required the awful exhaust filters and aftertreatment fluid. While the manufactures kept the same oil change mileage, I didn't take that chance and always changed mine early. It still wasn't enough, I lost the engines in my last two trucks due to high soot levels in the oil which ate the bearings. My last two trucks stayed in the shop more than the rest of my trucks over the years combined, but that's a story for a different day.

What does that have to do with oil used in our older cars you ask? Maybe nothing, but then again, it could be that newer oils have a better additive package that helps with wear better than the older oils. Plus, engines now with FI don't get the cylinders washed down with raw gas like our carbs often do. If anything, I'd change a carbureted engine a lot sooner than a FI one. With that being said, I wouldn't hesitate to use older oil that was in a sealed container, but I would mix it in a quart or so with the newer oil.

 

@Blues4U humor me for a bit, if you will.
Say I capped the drum. Rolled it around, etc. or even as mentioned before, used a “whisker” and mixed the heck out of it.
Could I then pump it out and heat it to get rid of condensation? I’m just thinking of using it for my tractor and forklift now, sent my neighbor a message linking this thread.
Since you mentioned that a multi grade oil (I’d have to look at the barrel to confirm, but I think it’s 15/40) that what’s used to bland it could change, would stirring/mixing it up make it like it was before? Or does it need to be done in some process I can’t do at home in “room temperature “?
As well the question pertains to the additives for a Diesel engine oil.
I don’t really need to save a buck, but pumping it out and taking it in to AZ is kinda not something I want to do. They only take a vehicle oil change at a time per day.

 

Honestly i think sending a classic to a regular shop will do more harm than 20 year old oil.
$50?!? here its around $250 - $300 for an oil change, and most of them don't have any knowledge about old cars, oil filter canisters for example, conventional vs synthetic, most shops just search the car tag in the database and 99% of classics arent present so you could get just anything.
Ofcourse there are some really good and serious shops out there but ive heard some really nightmare stories.

 

Is the price you mentioned in US dollars? If so(keep me from Google) what’s a family/average income in Sweden?
I buy a 5 quart jug of Mobile 1 synthetic and a oil filter for around 40$. Uptown my daughter paid about 80/90$ for the oil change place. I’m sure it wasn’t synthetic oil. I just transferred her the $$ because I didn’t have the time to do it.

 

I might take a sample , have it analyzed.

Ben

 

LOL.

Ben

 

Hey Mike ,
@Budget36
If you are worried about condensation,,,,,,pour a sample into a clear container .
Maybe,,,,a gallon size for good measure ?,,,,a glass jug with a screw on lid if you can find one .
Seal it off and let it sit for a week or so .
If there is any moisture present,,,,it will settle to the bottom and be visible .
Then you will know for sure.

Tommy

 

my wifies OT Car has page on the Speedo that tells you the oil life in %
I find that at about 7000 miles the life percentage may be 50%

I pull the dipstick out and the oil is dirty?
I change it

Why not look at the oil in the drum, rub it between your fingers
I think you would be able to tell if it is no good

PS: I also like the idea of having it analyzed

 

If additives benefit viscosity and they fall out of suspension over time wouldn't that imply that the viscosity does break down over time?

 

For what its worth, at work, we run a fleet of compressed natural gas school buses, 6.0l Chevrolets, 6.7 Cummins, and 8.9 Cummins. All run specific oil for CNG. The oil comes out of the Chevy's looking new, but its totally worn out at 5000 miles due to the heat. Cummins oil comes out red colored and worn out, 6.7 at 10,000, 8.9 at 20,000 miles. We had them all tested for the first few years to see how the oil was holding up. The 8.9 holds 28 qrt, so cost was a concern and changes extended to 20k. Some of the buses start loosing oil pressure around 15k, new oil fixes them, others can run out the entire 20k. Heat is the killer, and CNG makes a bunch of it. The only plus side is the engines are clean inside!

 

The answer is yes. The price of low hour tier one equipment is through the roof because of repair cost. As far a additives settling out if all the contents of the can make in into the engine haw much run time before its mixed back in? https://costhack.com/duramax-injector-replacement-cost/

 

If I deserve a nut hair pluck for this analogy so be it, but I am 1st and foremost a paint guy so here goes.

I blend up some clear paint with solvent and get it to 'X' viscosity. There's a random amount of resin solids in all paints so that's our variable. Sealed air tight, the vapors from the solvent can't escape. Temps are stable, no more than 85, no lower than 65. I submit that other than the solids over a LONG time the reduced material will remain mixed. The molecules blend for good. If I've been following the respected inputs about how oil is "constructed" and with heat being the catalyst, if you will, that bonds the molecular structure to form a lube for specific duty how can that bond break down absent the heat it took to create it. My paint analogy has "like" elements that blend 100% without heat. Over a long time the solids will settle, but magically (almost) a good shake will suspend them again and allow it to be applied and evaporate into a coating. No, catalyzed polymers are not part of this. That's a specific chemical reaction that works with or without atmosphere. I can see some of the plasticizers settling over time if the viscosity of said oil allows it, but do they return to a solid state or remain liquid?

In the end I wouldn't put 25yr old oil in a 6 figure Packard engine, but I would be happy to put a properly formulated oil in it to reduce the breakdowns old oil tech suffered back in it's heydays. Detergents, extra lubricant ability, proper and newer use of trace metals, all a good thing.

Too quiet here, thinking too much...

 

I wouldn't trust it. The problem is that it has fallen out of solution. Just stirring or agitating it is unlikely to combine everything so that it won't fall out of solution again. The other problem is that any oil you remove from the barrel will change the concentration of what's left, as you can't guarantee you're getting everything you are supposed to. Engine lubrication is very important. Don't play this game.

 

I live 10 minutes from a number of refineries what's this foreign-made you're talking about? "Genuine vintage oil" doesn't mean it's properly lubricating your engine.

 

Budget 36.........I think the answer is that all of these fossil based fluids, no matter the viscosity are subjected to atmospheric contamination and change somewhat over time. Doesn't matter if they are in a drum or in a machine of some type (that doesn't have combustion to contaminate it).Whether that change is enough to matter seems to be undefinable.....and vary with the situation and fluid. If its simply a matter of how "time" allows this to come about, all someone has to do is look at the broader picture of how and where fossil based (or even synthetic) oils are used in industry. How many examples can someone think of where a type of machine (even a transmission) has never had its fluid changed in its whole lifetime? A simple example would be one's air compressor. How many old air compressors are still running and have no filter and the original oil inside? What about all those old farm tractors out there and their hydraulic systems? Lots and lots of things that never get any change unless a hydraulic line leaks.
As for the oil you have on hand, I'd put it in a smaller container and use it for general oiling around the shop......not because its bad, but using newer types of oil may extend the life of your existing forklift.

As for old used oil, it comes in handy for burning things that don't want to burn easily............

 

Here's a thought that I haven't seen brought up yet? Bearing clearances on older engines were generally much wider than current engines which allowed heavier oils as opposed to more modern engines with much tighter tolerances which require lighter oils. Imagine using a straight 30 weight in todays engines and then imagine using a 5w20 or, worse yet, 0w20 in a flathead with it's original bearing clearances. I would think that 20-year-old oil used in an engine from that era using the same bearing clearances would work just fine, just don't expect the engine life to be comparable to a modern engine designed to be run with lighter oil and tighter clearances.

 

A whole lot of opinions here with not a lot of consensus.
If I had any vintage oil and I heard 1 or 2 of these scary stories, I'd probably use some of the "old" oil and mix in a quart or 2 of new stuff....... and then change it out a little sooner.
But now, after reading so many scary stories, I probably wouldn't use it myself but I'd trade it or give it to my buddy for his car service and repair shop so he can use it in your wife's car when she comes in for an oil change.

 

^^^^^
Don’t pay much attention to all the scary stories,,,,if you did,,,,you would never use a flat tappet cam again,,,,lol .

That’s why young men can fight wars,,,,and old men can’t .
Old men are afraid to try anything .

Yes,,,,I’m old too,,,,, but I’m still willing to try things before I give up,,,,lol .
And I don’t believe anything the news media tells me .

Tommy

 

In the late '60s I bought an original-owner, little-old-man '56 Ford. 223 six, three speed w/OD. Fresh rebuild (with receipts), ran like a top, couldn't hear it running going down the road. One of the better cars I've ever owned. Within a month it started seeping oil around the valve cover and valley cover. Had no luck re-sealing it. Then it started rattling on start-up. The noise would stop as soon as oil pressure came up, but still. I thought I'd been had...

Got to enough miles to need an oil change, and I decided to use up the 30w I had left over from my previous car...

A miracle! The rattling stopped, never to return, along with the oil leaking. The difference? Somebody had put 10w-40 in it right before I bought it. That motor went another 100K with no issues. The leaking I assume was the thinner oil seeping through the cork gaskets used as what little oil consumption I had disappeared.

 

There seems to be a lot of concern about possible moisture from condensation. I haven't come across this in servicing cars and equipment in the very moist Pacific Northwest, the water contamination I've seen was always from rain getting into tanks.
If there is lots of water in the barrel of oil, pour the oil off the top.

If you want to be extra cautious and dry the oil, a great way to do it is to put it in an engine and run it. This will get it good and hot and thoroughly mixed.

 

Yes im talking dollars
Just looked it up, a regular income one person around $35500 but this is tax lovers paradise, car parts and service are quite pricey.
A quart of kendall is around $15 and one filter to the Buick is $30
I buy alot of stuff from us, despite extra import taxes and shipping i usually get the stuff half the price.
When I were to buy new tie rod ends for my 54 Chevy they were $500 each, I needed 4 thats $2000 only for the tie rod ends, thats a bad joke
Im payed alot less so I do everything on my own, i have never turn to a shop for repair or service.

 

I would definitely gamble the life of my >$10K blown Hemi on $50 in product!

Can someone send me some old oil?!

 

Your 2 hours away from some, bring a jug!

 

on my next oil change I'll be using my 12 year-old SH rated oil in my old Cadillac. still have six quarts hanging around.

 

On my way!