Technical Rag Joints in steering...

I've been slowly acquiring all the bits for the running gear upgrades/mods on my '60 Sunliner 'vert and am ready to order the power steering pieces. I'm going with a Borgeson conversion power box and a column swap while I'm at it. No, this won't be a new-fangled late-style one, I'm going with a period-correct modified '58-60 T-bird column/wheel. Shifting will be floor-mounted, so no shift mechanism to deal with. The car currently has manual steering, it really needs power assist... it's a real handful in a parking lot.

As the OEM and T-bird columns both used one-piece steering boxes/shafts, I need to install some sort of coupler to connect the cut OEM shaft to the Borgeson box. I have three choices...
1. Use a solid coupler, essentially the same set up as OEM. Column alignment will be critical.
2. Use an all-metal u-joint/coupler, still roughly the same deal except column alignment will be less critical.
I don't care for either of these choices. These will transmit NVH as well as causing the column/shaft to 'move around' slightly due to body/frame flexing (remember, this is a convertible).
3. Use an OEM-style rag joint. I'm really leaning towards this as this will reduce NVH as well as compensating for any slight movement, allowing a more 'solid' mounting of the column. This is one reason the OEMs switched over to these. I understand that these can't be used for angle changes, so column alignment has to be right.

Next choice is which rag joint to use? I suspect that few guys here use these as most early cars are space-limited and these things are a bit bulky. But I do have the room, hence my looking at them. Both Borgeson and Flaming River offer them but want IMO stupid money for them. And I'll admit that I'm a bit spooked that Borgeson offers 'rebuild kits' for theirs. I wasn't aware that these were regular maintenance items, particularly for the hobby market. OEM replacements are available for much less money (and I've found one that appears that it will work with minor mods). I have seen a few OEM ones 'age out' but no outright failures.

Anybody with first-hand experience? Knowledgeable opinions? Comments?

Thanks!

 

I’ve only ever seen a few busted up rag joints and they were from turning wheels without power assist operable.
I’ve seen them rusted too, there’s not much metal around the rubber parts.
I’ve not noticed much issue with NVH concerns with solid joint either. My buddy’s late model Chevy truck has more steel wheel translated annoying input than anything I’ve ever put together with solid joints.

 

The few times I've used them, I scored them from a Chevy in the wrecking yard. They have always worked great for me. I like to use them for the same reasons you state.

 

I've seen plenty of the in 50 year old GM cars that showed no signs of wearing out

 

Many cars used rag joints. I think where one should be concerned in a hot rod application is if they are beyond the design limits of angular or lateral misalignment. In other words, if the angle is slight and there is no lateral bind on instalation then you will likely have no problem with a rag joint. My tub has one and it has behaved well.

I'm not arguing against the use of a U-joint design, but rag joints sometimes get maligned for the wrong reasons.

 

borgeson also makes vibration damper u joints and rag joints

 

In 50 years of working as a mechanic I've only seen a handful of rag joints wear out or fail. Mostly a good choice for a slightly flexible steering coupler. A number of different companies offer replacement rubber and hardware kits (Dorman comes to mind) and complete units can be had as well.

I have a power rack and pinion in my 63 Galaxie. If I was to do it again I would use a rag joint at the bottom of the column instead of a u-joint. NVH was instantly noticable with just u-joints in the system. Not so bad as to go back and change it, but for sure was there, and not before removing the rag joint.

 

I’ve done the reverse. Stock 50’s steering box to later oem column. I went solid coupler since everything went back online. So what if you (think you will) feel the road thru the steering wheel. That’s how they were built back then is how I see it.

 

Thanks for the feedback, a rag joint it is!

 

Hey Steve, I’ve had a ton of 1973-79 Ford pickups and changed a few of those rag joints because the rubber just rotted away. The kits I used were from NAPA. Maybe one of those would work if you could find one in a salvage yard.

 

My '55 F100 has a Toyo 4 X 4 p.u. P/S box, coupled to my modified F100 mast by a Borgeson 'U' joint.
NVH has been 'notable', and now that my wife and I are doing a mild 'rehash' of the truck a rag joint is at the top of the list!

 

Look at '59 to '64 Chevy info...inexpensive and easy to modify...

1964 Chevrolet Impala Parts | Steering | Steering Box Components | Couplers and Rag Joints | Classic Industries

 

I think I have changed maybe three rag joints on rigs in the past 50 years., One was oil soaked so bad had softened up and fallen apart, I took the car out to the wash rack and pressure washed the engine compartment before I worked on it and had to replace the power steering hoses and the engine mechanic replaced several gaskets in the engine before all was said and done. One was on a farm/ranch truck that just flat had been abused. The other one I remember was on a high mileage rig that had "loose steering" Every piece of the suspension and steering was worn out. that was the only car or truck that I totally rebuilt the suspension and steering on before I was done because if it was suspension or steering and could wear out it was worn out.

 

When I first put power steering on my car, I used the rag joint and short shaft from an 80’s Cutlass. It worked fine, but had a bit more mismatch in angle with the column than I liked. I switched to a u joint and a universal double d shaft. I can’t tell any difference in road feel or vibration.

 

You stated that you know the rag joints are not for angular changes.

I had a failure in my F100 on the highway at about 40 mph for that very reason. The rubber let go and I was able to coast to a stop with no steering and stayed on the shoulder. I got lucky.

It took me a while to figure out why it happened until I realized there was a very slight angular change at the rag joint. That is because the fella I bought the truck from put a 63 cab on a 65 chassis, and hooked the column up in what appeared to be okay, until the rag joint failed.

I put a new rag joint on the truck, and checked it a couple days later and one of the nuts had worked its way off already. I replaced the nuts with stover nuts and it has stayed put no problem but I have a couple u joints to put in it to replace it, cause I occasionally carry my grand kids with me.

The angle on mine is not even noticeable by eye, but it definitely is out enough to work the nuts loose until I put stover nuts on it.

 

I have a rag joint on the roadster but it's a straight shot. My column is offset so it's connected to the intermediate shaft via a double U-joint which runs through a heim to the rag joint. Works great and never had an issue with the nuts loosening.

 

I think I have what you need. I will double check tomorrow.

If I am correct in my memory, it is a brand-new, never installed rag joint, that is for a Borgeson power box on one side, and a 3/4" DD shaft on the other.

You would need to grind/mill the flats in your shaft.

The rubber portion is a GM piece, so replacement down the road is easy.

Yup, they are stupid money, but you can HAVE this one for free.

 

My 66 Suburban

 

Doing suspension work day in, day out for 45 yrs I've got no problems with rag joints. How many have been used and are still in use today?

As stated above it's usually abuse, oil, or very old age that breaks one down.

Also factory ones have safety features built in were you can't loose steering if the rubber breaks, lots of play but NO lose of control. Pretty much like the old 60's etc motor mounts with the safety catch.

I would check a salvage yard for one and just grab a rebuild kit from napa for it. Also as stated above I always replace the nuts in the kit with stover nuts and call it done.

..

 

I’ve replaced the steering shaft on a 71 f250 4x4 with a borgeson double u-joint slider shaft . The pickup is used to feed cattle, drives up and down country roads . I’ve had the top u-joint come off the steering column shaft twice . I’ve ordered a new replacement shaft for borgeson because it’s the only option I can find . I’ve drilled and tapped 2 more set screw holes in both u-joints so there are now 3 set screws holding the u-joints in place . I used blue loctite on the first shaft and on the second shaft . I also made sure the set screws are lined up with the groove on the steering column shaft and the steering box shaft .

 

That would be great! One thing is the box specced for my car uses a 11/16"-36 spline input which seems to be a bit of an oddball as most are 3/4" input. My OEM column shaft is 3/4", milling flats on it is no big deal.

 

Wrong input spline, and a crazy price!

 

Yup, price a bit high.

 

And, it causes cancer!

 

That's ridiculous!! Over 260 dollars for 1?

Besides it's billet and billet is a street rod thing not hot rod.

.

 

Odd about the vibrations. I’ve had several trucks with box to column to steering wheel and never noticed a vibration. All beam axles.

 

Woodward Steering in Wyoming. I used their U-joint on my '54 build. Absolutely a quality piece. $80.
Check out UA108/100
http://www.woodwardsteering.com/PDF/7. Steering Universal Joints, Splined Couplers and Shafts.pdf

 

As far as I know, that is the spline.

I will be down to the shop in an hour or so.

 

if you look specifically at the borgeson 65/66 powers teering conversion kit.
note, a 65/66 mustang has the solid shaft
they sell a inner solid shaft that has the ford spline
the shafts are 31.25'' long
they come with a nylon lower bush and a firewall clampy type doofer
-note, someone somewhere makes a better nylon doofer with a bearings and a better clamp.

erm
something about the one bit steering shaft and the turn signal and the ground needing to go through the body of the steering box that is NOT electrically isolated like the 68 up, which uses a two horn contact rings moulded into the steering wheel

i.e. the inner shafts are exactly the same as the chevrolet ones for the 57 cheeby conversion but cut for a chevy spoline, so you can use a 68 up chevy collar and an aftermarket steering wheel, and have a horn contact chevy style that works .

so yes, beware, once you cut the inner shaft of the ford steering column, you lose the ground for the horn

the horn contact changed in 68 to two rings in the steering wheel and not 1 like th epre 66 fords

you can buy the ford steering wheel splined inner shafts speratly - they come with


the lower spline id 3/4 inch and 36 splined, so its easier to get a rag joint or universal joint
Borgeson 990040 Steering Column Shaft Fits 64-69 Mustang | eBay

they have stopped including the nylon bush there!!

this one has it
Borgeson 990040 Column Shaft Replacement with Floor Mount 1965 1966 1967 Mustang 843975016092 | eBay

 

I'm not concerned about the horn ground as I'm using steel bearings on both ends of the steering shaft in the column, plus the only load will be the milliamps of the horn relay coil, so arcing will be nearly nonexistent.