Technical Anybody ever put a small block Chevy in a 63 Buick Riviera.

It does seem odd. I could understand if the engine and transmission were tired, etc. but just to change for change-sake?

Curious, since you know him, did he give a reason why he wants to go Chevy?

 

Gonna cost a feces-ton of loot to do that one. I hope the customer knows that up front.

 

I suspect that the customer has been talking to his friends and they are all LS fans. There is no logic to what the customer wants IMHO. That old sayings "just because you can doesn't mean you should"

Pat

 

Many show your customer this thread and the opinion of real car guys, who do not hesitate to change engines in any type of car. Since the consensus is to leave the stock engine in it, or it will ruin the car and the value.

 

Here's the whole story, the guy that I work for had this car for a while and sold it to the guy. He drove it around for a while and then took it to an upholstery shop to get some work done. But apparently the guy was high on something. And started doing the worst job You could ever imagine And the guy pulled it out of there, midway through,He was so disgusted with it,the guy took it home and got tired of it and I imagine got talking to his friends about it and wants to put a small block in it for "reliability reasons", I have personally never met the guy or talked to him. Because it's all going through my boss. So I've got to talk to him through my boss. Or maybe I can get his number. As far as my thinking, I don't think he knows what he wants. And no one will tell him what the best options are so I need to get ahold of him.

 

People have been ruining other brands with those orange blobs for decades so why not a Buick? A nice crate 350 would fit the bill perfectly.

 

Probably an internet "expert". I deal with them every day at my bike shop. The odd thing is when they start trying to tell ME how it is, they're always wrong.. 98% of the time. No, 99.5%.
Make the car disappear one night. Think of it as a rescue, or intervention.

 

Ok, it’s not easy to go get parts at the corner for a nailhead.
But what’s he going to need for it?

There’s a whole world of restomod stuff out there, yeah around here we favor the old stuff and ignore most of the modern world.

If he’s got the money - take it, and give him a great job in return. I’ve had some crazy people come here with wild aspirations and seemingly bad ideas. After talking with them at length about things , they actually had the means, the vision and fortitude and their wife’s consent to see it thru. First there’s the actual cost, then the additional “I don’t want to do this price” plus the “PITA charge”, plus the “hurry up uncharge” and then they ask when can you get started. “It’s not gouging when you’re asshole deep into a custom project that’s using every brain cell, all the bandwidth you can access and everything needs to be custom fabricated after you figured out how it’s got to be. Just a couple steps short of sorcery should pay better than dog walking.
Some start shivering and quibble about costs- they probably need to learn how to do this shit themselves.

In the big scheme of things how hard can it be?

 

Maybe compromise and talk the customer into just doing an OD automatic, but keep the Buick engine. At least that swap wont show, and would improve driving for long road trips.

 

You realize Oldsmobile started using the sbc in the 1970s right, Pontiac too.

As far as the Rivi with a sbc, so what. It's no different than a tilt steering column in a Model A or '34 ford. They look terrible, no one says boo. Front suspension swaps, been going on forever. I remember when I had just joined a car club at 16 in '72 and one of the members installed a Camaro front suspension deal, claimed to be the first. Another member did him one better and sild a complete firebird chassis under his F100.
Not traditional by any stretch, yet there are hundreds of examples on this site.

Don't see any reason for the fuss over a sbc in a Rivi. I wouldn't do it but it's not my car.
Does makes me wish I'd kept my '63 Rivi though. What a great car.

 

Buick owner has to remember, a sbc swap is not new tech. The sbc was phased out of new car production about 20 years ago.
No, you can't walk into any auto parts store and get replacement parts for a SBC.
Example, in 2019 I was driving through Toledo, Ohio and a valve spring broke on my 20k mile sbc crate (an engine no longer sold by GM).
With local help, I was able to locate one at a parts store across town, 30 minute drive.
Luckily I was not out in the proverbial 'middle if nowhere', but I was several hundred miles from home on the first day of a ten day trip.
Easier than nailhead parts? Probably. Easy? Not really.

 

Whole lot of truth right there

 

Ah, the 70's. Disco, bell bottoms and crappy cars. Not exactly a period of time that will live in infamy.

 

I'll partly play devil's advocate here.

I don't think it's always a bad idea to do a SBC swap in a car like a Buick, Olds, Cad, etc. I think it really depends on the situation, the end result desired, and several other factors. If the goal is just to have an engine that runs, then by all means keep the Buick.

Other times I'm reminded of how things were when my buddies and I were kids. Someone would have an absolutely hammered old car and needed to get it running on a shoestring budget. We'd find some Chevy Caprice with a 305 in the newspaper classifieds for $500, drive it back to the house, pull the entire drivetrain, weld up some crude mounts and slam it in in place of some broken Ford 223, Y block, Olds, or whatever. We barely had money for gas, let alone enough dough to rebuild a Jetaway.

From a power standpoint, a SBC with an aftermarket head is likely a more efficient engine than the Buick. The Buick may make more power, but it's through increased compression and cubic inches. The Chevy with the same cubes and compression will likely outperform the Buick, weigh less, and do so for a fraction of the cost. It is what it is there.

From the sounds of this, it sounds like it is probably not a good idea to swap the Nailhead in lieu of a SBC. The Nailhead here sounds like it's in good running order. If the customer wants OD, which is great, there are viable and relatively inexpensive options to accommodate this goal and still keep the Nailhead. That's not always the case for folks who run certain Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles. And if the factory running gear here were in poor condition, it would change the analysis.

If the person wants to get rid of the Nailhead because of the cost of the rebuild or parts, they will likely spend that 2x or more paying labor to swap in a SBC. The savings there is a fallacy.

 

So what gear ratio does this riviera have?
most old luxury cars with torque monster engines had a 2.XX rear gear. 1 because the engine could pull it, 2 for optimal highway cruising and most could still light the tires off.
Any OD trans I know of won’t work well with that 2.xx gear . Second, can you get gears for it that would work better for the OD? Or is this a custom 9” built to fit? Before all that what’s the current 65 mph RPM & where’s the torque curve setting. My 401 was 2800 rpm for 440 lbft torque.

 

EZ to get parts for?
Lol.
I had to order fuel and water pumps for a SBC locally. Not stocked.
No matter what engine you use if something internal happens it’s on a roll back.
I don’t buy the parts logic. That’s a not very well thought out excuse.
I know a guy with a mid 60s caddy that is considering an LS. He can’t get the caddy running well. So the logic is to replace an engine that needs a small amount of wiring and replace it with one that needs a lot more wiring and an ECM.
Seen a lot of LS swaps stall because the car owner is frustrated with the old then get frustrated with the new.

 

Bingo-
It doesn’t get easier, it’s 10x more complicated.

 

Anthony, you're a 100% correct. I had a customer That had A 64C10 pick up And it had a 350 motor in it that nobody could get to run right,Including all his drinking buddies. once he brought it to me I got it running beautiful and The Thing was awesome. He wanted to do an ls motor swap for more power. And because it's the cool thing to do. So said his friends, And I didn't want to do it. So he took it somewhere else. And they halfway did the swap and then dragged on for about 8 months. He brought the truck to me. And I finished it and got it running just fine and tell you the truth It had less power than the 350 it replaced. He ended up getting tired of it because he had so much money in it and sold it for half of what he had into it. As for the Riviera's rear gearing, I checked it on the lift and it's got 323 years. So that's a good freeway gear. Before anything else happens, I'm going to talk to the customer personally.

 

Is there anything that hasn't had a SBC put in it?

 

Every single one of my Fords.

 

Face it, SBC’s are Just Gigolo’s.
“Nobody (Nobody)
Nobody (Nobody)
Nobody (Nobody)
Nobody (Nobody)
Nobody (Nobody)
Nobody cares for me”

 

An update of sorts. Talked to the customer, Gonna pull the motor and get it rebuilt and get an adapter kit and put a th 350 behind it.

 

That’s better
Still a trans downgrade

 

The 3 speed will make it "feel" faster

 

Show him this thread...

 

I put a 350/th400 in a 64 wildcat, which has essentially the same frame front crossmember and steering as the 63-65 Rivis. I saved this car from the crusher since itwas rust free, but the 401/ sp400 were not running/ worn out. I used a nova Center sump oilpan and pump on a 350 sbc, made new motor mounts from the disentegrating nailhead mounts and the th 400 dropped right in. The car ran and drove very well. I sold it after a while and in the meantime the new owner rebuilt the nailhead and trans and completly restored the wildcat.
I‘ll see if I can find my old build thread and attach it to this post!

Edit: I could not find my old thread, but I have photos on my computer. I‘m out of town until the weekend, but will add some photos when I‘m back home .
I‘m also glad your customer decided against the Engine swap. I have a 65 Riviera and love the nailhead and SP 400 transmission. Maybe you can convince your customer it may be a good idea to use a st/sp 400 transmission instead of a th350. As the St/Sp400 will bolt up to the nailhead, withstand more torque than a th350 and is just as easy and rebuildable as any Th350. Plus he will save Money because he wont have to buy an adapter kit. If he finds a Sp version he will have the switch pitch feature on top. Sp400s have two connectors at the kickdown switch .

 

No , it Will live in infamy as one of the darkest periods in automotive history !

 

And music as well.

 

Automotive, likely as there were few stars to come out. Very few. Bell bottoms? I did flares and work boots. Disco? Only to ogle at the chicks. Steve Dahl in Chicago. Case closed (gotta be old to remember that). We did get punk rock tho. Not a bad thing, right? Cruising an old hot rod with the Ramones blasting? Life was good.

But back on topic, it's amazing how the most universal engine swap in automotive history is so often not so universal. Especially lately given how the beloved SBC is even older than I am. What happens is a cliche becomes a practice where "Drop a 350 in it" seems like a cake walk. More like walking in the batter sometimes. I noticed above where "...use a Nova pan and pickup..." as if NAPA has it in stock waiting for all of us. If there's cars that will always be worth more in parts than as a whole Novas rank in the top 5, maybe the top 3. I am glad to hear the client has seen some light at the end of his tunnel (vision) and some better direction is coming his way. And another dedicated builder has a paying job to keep his addiction, uh, I mean affliction, in check. All's well that ends well.