Hey all, so I have a '54 deluxe 235hp, inherited sort of, off the road since 1964 I have begun tearing down to revive. I have the Chrysler shop manual for reference, but it isn't helping me here... I think someone has been into these heads before, each head has 2 styles of spring seats, 4 of each, but they are mismatched across intake and exhaust, which I don't think is correct. I have attached a couple of pictures of the seats, one style has a grove in the top, with a bowl shape on the bottom, the other no groove and flat on the bottom. Does anyone know which is which? Also, when I removed the springs, (only did one side so far, keeping the other intact for reference) I didn't see any sort of seal on the intake valves as the shop manual would indicate. In the Manual it has what looks like a small steel washer-like ring that goes on 2nd last before the keepers on the top of the seat. Any ideas? The manual doesn't specify a difference between the 195 and 235 heads, was something else used that is missing here? Thanks in Advance. Darren
That 'intake valve seal ring' is a small o-ring. It keeps oil that puddles on top of the retainer from seeping down the stem. So, that is the 'seal'. Same type of arrangement was used on a lot 50s engines. If it were mine I'd be finding a set of positive seals and have the guides machined to accept them if needed.
Early SBC’s had square o-rings under the keepers too. My y-block had umbrellas. I bought a tool from comp cams and install PC or other types on all my heads, metal to metal on the guides not the ones with seal material. Never a problem.
We have a 331 torn down and machined at the shop right now, so I’ll see what I can confirm off the original valve train. Worst case I also have an unopened 331 from 51’ that I can pull a valve cover on and check, just will have to wait a few days for me to get over to where I have it stashed Is this your first early hemi?
Might not have specifics of this question, but if 1st hemi put "Hemi Tech Index" by Scooter McRad in search & start reading!
Thanks Ken, this was a rubber O-ring? Perhaps mine dissolved sometime in the Reagan era... It is my first yes. I appreciate the time.
Thanks for the clarification, I would also call them retainers, but decided to use "spring seats" in the wording to sync with what the Shop Manual calls them for clarity; which apparently made it worse haha.
If you're going to completely rebuild the heads, I thought this thread gave some good useful info on current off-shelf-parts you could use: Technical - "Heinz 57" Street Hemi Heads | The H.A.M.B. (jalopyjournal.com)
What are the plans for the engine? If you are building a daily driver then you might avoid the high-zoot stuff and save some money. Stainless 392 valves are readily available, you can use a 354 cam and new cores are sporadically available (call your favorite cam company), you do not want or need giant springs if a DD, and umbrella seals work just fine (intake only). What condition are the rocker shafts in?
The one we have at the shop of already ***embled and the guides have been machined down for positive seals. However… This is the intake side, looks to be the flat retainer and would have o-ring stem seals in the lower of the two groves in the intake valve stem Here’s the exhaust, looks to match the retainer with the ring in it, and wouldn’t have a seal from the factory Here it is over all, let me know if you have any other questions, I have 3 331’s and a 392 laying around (this nice complete one is for sale if ya want it, just saying haha)
I just have the one head apart so far, quite happy with the condition of the heads. Seats are great, guides are measuring out and look good. Took the rockers apart last night, other than dirty they also look fine. Some carbon build up in the chambers and on the valves but cleans up ok. Driver's side head, I was a bit worried about this one, as Micky and Minnie and the rest of the Mouseketeers had used it to store buckwheat. When I took it off the exhaust ports were jammed full. This is going to be a goin' to town on Sunday rig. I want to keep it as original as possible, not looking for a high zoot build.
Thank you so much this is exactly the information I needed!!!! This picture shows the head as I took it off, you can see cyl 1-5-7 have the correct retainer, cyl 3 is on the wrong side. Both heads had the same mismatch. I didn't find any seals on the intake valves in this head (P*** side not yet dis***embled), did find buckwheat Are the orignal style 0-ring seals something available or are they now made of Unobtanium? Darren
You have to remember back in the old days,,,,it was very common to have valve jobs performed on an engine . Whoever put these back together mixed up a few retainers from intake to exhaust . No problem . Like Gary stated in post #11 ,,, seals are only needed on the intakes,,,,the exhaust are fine without any . Common umbrella seals work great,,,,especially on a stocker regular build ,,,,,and are inexpensive as well . If you choose,,,you can put the o ring seals on the exhaust,,,,,no issue . As dirty as those rocker ***emblies likely are,,,judging from the **** in the heads ,,,,I would definitely remove the end plugs from the shafts and clean them out,,,,,there will be a ton of **** in there. Usually these old Hemi rocker ***emblies hold up pretty well,,,,as long as they haven’t been starved for oil . You can see when you inspect the shafts,,,,,practically no wear equals good condition usually . Tommy
In case you apprehensive about removing the shaft plugs,,,it’s really easy . The exhaust shaft will have the most junk in there,,,,,usually almost 40-50 % full,,,,,really . The intake shaft will be about 25% full . The exhaust shaft is the end of the line in the top end lube system ,,,,,I surmise that at shutdown,,,,the contamination in the oil settles out in the shaft and solidifies . The cup plugs are available from Mopar,,,,,,they are the same size from all the old Hemis, all the way to the 318,340 , and 440 ,,,,any Mopar shaft rocker system. They are also available from Dorman,,,,#555-011 . Tommy
That is great information, thanks! I am completely in the dark about umbrella seals, so total Noob question, where on the stem would they go if I go that route?
Right under the retainer ,,,like any other seal . Just put them on and push them down over the guide area . Umbrellas work great,,,,,fairly cheap too if you shop around . I bought a bunch years ago when I caught them on sale from a good vendor . At one time,,,,,they used to come in rebuild kits,,,,,,,everybody had so many extras,,,,most just threw them out ,,,lol . These old engines are really well designed,,,,if they have proper lubrication,,,,they will almost last indefinitely . Tommy
The little o-ring seals should come in any full gasket kit, I know for a fact Fel-Pro includes them. The o rings work, umbrellas work a little better, Positive seals work best If you want, any local engine machine shop should be able to cut down the guides to push on a modern valve seal. I do it on every old head I machine at work.
Went to a local shop recommended to me, brought the springs, retainers with me and measurement of the valve guides 0.65. He pulled some BBC umbrellas off the shelf, OD is too wide to clear the springs. Had nothing else, said he'd make some calls, that was a week ago and I haven't heard back.
The Jalopy Journal
