Hot Rods Twin Super Red Rams?

It's getting time to dig my S&W chassis out of my friends barn. It's currently a turn key car with a 1963 Dodge 413 on it. It's way longer, at 225" than I wanted. But, where can you find a running car for $2000. I have a 270 CI Dodge Super Red Ram Hemi. I have the numbers of a couple manufactures that make couplers for them. We also have a pretty big tractor pull group of guys in my area, to pick their brains. I'd like to get another SRR. Two Red Rams won't be making more HP than the 413. I've read most of the stuff on the search feature. I have two questions.

1. I looked and really couldn't find specifics. Are there sanctioning bodies that will Cert a Twin Engine now. Drag, land speed?

2. Since this car is not going to be an overly fast car, I was thinking of naming it "Slow Motion". Is there another "Slow Motion" out there? I looked and couldn't find one, and don't remember one? Thanks, Joe.

 

I see plenty of multiple engine land speed cars every year. Not a ton of drag cars though there is obviously a history of it.

looking forward to seeing it come together it sounds wild.

 

1. Call the coupler manufacturers. I'd guess that they know who is using the parts and where, and they sound like something that might require certification, so they would know which sanctioning body allows them. You could call the sanctioning bodys too. Direct info rather than a bunch of opinions and "I used ta" stuff.
2. a quick search turned up this
https://www.facebook.com/watch/slowmotionracingteam/
As for historic name stuff, internet searches are not the best for finding vintage teams/cars. You could look through old race results, but unless they also included full field entries, you still aren't positive. Best of luck, I'd assume you are going to run gas since the biggest era for twins was the nitro ban era. Carbs, injection? Double Ram? HEMI(small 2) like hemi squared?

 

Thanks. Defiantly gas. Probably Stromberg's. Although I saw an article, years ago, some one made a cross ram style manifold from tubing. The tubes for the right bank bent and crossed over the left valve cover. The carb flange was welded on the tube for side drafts. I'm thinking the one I saw had Webbers? If I ran 8 side drafts straight into the cylinders, and you calculate the size of carb by the CI, I might have to use motorcycle carbs? Back when I had my first FED, 1976 or so, the local auto parts store found an NOS 392 Hemi drag engine. They wanted $3500 for it. That was a lot of money to me back then. It had a blower base on it, with a flat base and 8 flanges for Stromberg's. I like that a lot better than some of the homemade log manifolds. Thanks again, Joe.

 

Not wanting to pull the carpet out from under you, but I'd imagine getting 2 engines to be happy strapped together is a bit of a learning curve to start, without the added complexity of exotic induction!
If the tractor pull guys can demystify that for you, go for it. As for building instead of buying, I'd think something like a U-Fab would be a step in the path toward handbuilt IR carb intakes.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/aluminum-u-fab-intakes-for-hemi.95760/
The reason against a blower base with a multicarb adapter is runner length. It would be tuned (very short runners) for very high RPM.

https://gegcalculators.com/intake-manifold-runner-length-calculator/

EDIT: another thing to ponder before you leap is how the chassis will handle the additional weight. paging dreracecar

 

Reference material
Here:
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/toymakers-twin-engine-dragster-build.533613/

 

Thanks, I saw that, don't remember if I finished it?

 

One question leads to 2 or 3 more. Glad I asked. Never want to hear, "I started to ask you that 2 years ago?" The chassis is a 2000 or 2002 S&W That was certified with the 413 on it. First call should probably be to S&W. Intakes? I had a 6X2, two piece Offy for an early Olds. Since it's long gone, just sitting hear, I wonder if you could make plates to match the intake and block? Doesn't matter, I think the Offy went to the PNW. I guess another thing is I should call Ultra Bell and see if they have a bell for the 270. The early Hemi's had a small block Mopar bolt pattern. The trans is an Ultra bell/Power glide. Thanks for the tips and directions, Joe.

 

Just do it. Not enough cool stuff happening like twin engine dragsters.

 

270 cu. in red ram = 33.75 cu. in per cylinder.
33.75 cu. in. = 533 cc. each.
Most all bike engines rev higher than you are going to spin a pair of early hemis.
Much easier to get the carbs inline, synchronized and linkage to balance with a 4 carb set.
So you want a 4 carb set that feeds a liter plus bike.
Twin banks for each V8, 2 V8s, so 4 sets of 4. Just need to get them all to operate the same.
cables will stretch more if longer.
Something like this, rebuilt and adjusted. I saw prices from 100-320 as shown. Plus kits.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185823530064
That feeds a 1200, which is 300 each and revs to 8500. that should be close, but would like a bit bigger.
Then 2 intakes fabricated and low pressure fuel to all 16 carbs.

 

I called S&W Chassis today and asked if my car would support twin small early Hemi's. The tech said his first guess would be no, but that was a question that had to go to the Engineer, and he wont be in till after the first of the year.

I checked Ultra Bell because the car has an Ultra Bell Power Glide trans in it. Their website does list a bell housing for the small early Hemi's. That shouldn't be a problem, the early Hemi's have the same bolt pattern as the later LA engines, 318's, 340's. But I think they need about an inch thick adapter. I would think that extra inch would be built into the Ultra Bell?

I want to talk to the S&W engineer before getting ahead of myself.

 

No, you have to use the 392 to (?) adaptors, or find a bell for the early hemi, hemi based Poly, or "A" Poly up to '61. Bell changed after '61.

 

When you get to talking, ask if the flexible chassis would require
Stiffening at the engines to keep them aligned or
a 'girdle' aligning the engines that mounted to the chassis and didn't stress it at that point.

I'd guess modern chassis have designed in flex that is less than early ones, and this amount is known even if not disclosed (trade secret).
If it's like this one, it appears the engine area is strong at the rear (human zone) to keep alignment to axle and the part around the engine itself matches all sections going forward, except height which tapers.
https://www.swracecars.com/products/225-front-engine-dragster-blueprint

 

tommy ivo's four-engine dragster comes to mind. only, he was partial to nailhead buick engines.

 

I did this yesterday and forgot to hit the post button, so it's late.

Ultra Bell lists one for the small early Hemi's, but I'll call to make sure. I was pretty sure the early Hemi's bolted up to the 318 -340 727's, which I thought were the LA's. I'll check that also. I am also pretty sure that you can only use a 727, the smaller 904 has starter issues. I'm trying to pull up 35-40 year old info/memories, which I'm good at confusing. But, I'm getting off track since the car has an Ultra Bell Power Glide, so all I need is the Bell housing to Glide.
Thanks, gives me more issues to check out.

Thanks, the tech I talked to said the car only has one center support post? and may not carry the weight, so he gave me the engineer's number. Hopefully he calls back Monday. I also mentioned that I thought the car was the 225" car you posted. Then he said, almost like he was thinking out loud, "It may be our Nostalgia Dragster", like it was another model that wasn't listed

I know I'm a little vague about the car, we haven't dug it out from 20 years of storage. He has to move 3 Model T's and parts of a vintage street car that he is restoring for another customer. I don't have a place to put it right now, unless I take it to my farm in WV, I'm in MD. I want it at home so if I get a few minutes, I can work on it and not have to plan a week end. Thanks for all the help, all you guys, Joe.

 

Just checked Hot Heads website. They list the early Hemi to small block 727 adapter, fits 54-58 Chrysler, all Dodge and all DeSoto. It's just an inch thick ring that extends the back of the Hemi block. I'm sure that Ultra Bell's, bell housing just has that extra inch built into the bell.

The first Chryslers had that extended block/bell that looked like the whole bell housing was built on the block. I remember back in the 70's the early 331's with the long bell's were hardly worth scrap value. Some company made a jig and parts to cut the heavy bell off, and mate it to a small block 727.

 

How new is the chassis? (sorry I know nothing about S&W chassis) If you want to certify it you will need all the tubing to be the proper size and wall thickness as well as a proper roll cage. Otherwise you are just building a cackle fest car.

This is a dumb question and has nothing to do with getting legal. You have a 413 car that makes more zot than twin red rams. So you want to remove a single motor in favor of a package that will weigh more than what you got in it now? I know it is a dumb question.

 

Starting in '62 both the bell & the crankflage changed. If planning on using Power Glide you would need a 392 to PG adaptor, check Hot Heads or Wil-Cap. Yes the hemis need a 727, not 904. Except for the long tail 51-3 331s, all early hemis are same bell. As said A after '61 & LA won't work.

 

That chassis will need to be front halved to turn it into a twin engine car. If you dig out pics of Motes and Williams twin or the Freight train, do some looking at the engine section and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you really want a twin, be prepared for more changes than just tubing. It isn't my desire to rain on your parade but to share insight from a former chassis builder's viewpoint.

 

I had never heard of S&W either. On their website it says they have been in the race car chassis business since 1959. My friend that built the car got the plans around 1999 and it took him about two years to complete. An NHRA certified welder built the cage and supervised my friend on everything else. He is a very accomplished welder. He has bought hot rod projects where the builder got as far as chopping the top and gave up. He then UN chopped them and returned them to as built condition. Anyway, he took the car to 75-80 Raceway on a day they were doing certs and it certified. He rented the track for a few hours one day to do shakedown runs and the car would not shift out of 1st. He called Ultra Bell and he talked to a different sales man. He asked if he put a manual valve body in it, and he said no. The tech he dealt with the first time sold him a "package", and there was no manual valve body. He put the valve body in, and everything went smooth as silk. Took it to the track one more time and put a couple more shakedown runs on it. Then the track went out of business and he never tried to race it again. Took it to a few car shows. I think he said it certified in either 2000 or 2002. So, it's been sitting for the best part of 20 years. About the engines. The 270's were rated 185 HP from the factory. I think the 413 was about 350 HP, so as is, no HP gain, just the cool factor of twin Hem's. I'm almost 70 and the best any of my Dodge Swingers did were 12's. I had a factory original Buick Riviera with a 2X4, 425 that was rated at 390 HP. Messing with a Camaro I pegged the speedo on it at 140. Pending on how accurate it was, that's the fastest I have ever been. I don't plan on trying to go real fast right out of the Chute. I would like to break 150, and take it from there. I can always build the engines up or switch to 331's. Then I'd have room to grow.

If I can't run the twins, I will probably go with the single 270, just because the Hemi looks better. Most people can't tell the differences in the various early Hemi's. I was thinking of naming it Slow Motion, because it's been so long since I've been on the track, I don't know how I'll react. One step at a time.

 

Please understand, I had a short wheel base FED when I was just out of high school. I built the 340 , put a shorty kit on the 727, and had it certified. Over the winter someone offered me enough I let it go. I always regretted that. The guy I sold it to said he took it to Capitol Raceway in MD. Said his best time was a 9.6 at 168 MPH. That didn't bother me at all. Now, I just don't know how I'll feel. If the speeds and times don't jibe, it's just what he told me. Just building it will be satisfactory to me. If I can drive it, that's icing on the cake. Here's the one I let get a way. I've often thought it may have been a Lyndwood, but not sure.

 

I'm just trying to relive the dream!

 

George, here's the confusion. The Ultra Bell is the adapter from block to trans. Here's a pic of one for GM's, if it will post, Joe.
https://www.jegs.com/i/J+W+Performa...NmrNkNEzIXw_1kKAaRpazmGZD2XA0oH5unGa3Onoq4I3C

 

Here is the template, Adams Enriquez Double Eagle, twin 354 Chryslers on Nitro !

 

An added thought: a built 270 will make a little over 300 hp. without spending a fortune. With a 3500 or better stall speed convertor and a 4:56 gear with a 30" or less in height rear tire, you will probably have a 10 second car. That depends on your weight. The car should be under 1500 lbs with you in it. Any expectations past that could get expensive. In regards to your's friends et and mph, there is no way a mild 340 was going to run 168 mph in the quarter. I watched econo rails run low nines at not quite 150 for years until super comp came around and people started using electronics to slow their 180 mph cars down. I may be wrong but I'm real skeptical. Because you don't have a lot of racing history and many tracks are 1/8th mile now, you might be very happy with the 270. The exhaust in your face and the open air exp. will put a smile on most people's faces. Good luck with your decision. One other thing, as speeds go up, more sfi stickers are required and more driver apparel. The costs add up rapidly.

 

With any drag car, there is a jump at 9.99 and faster. With a digger, the driver safety is higher all along.
Since this is a long held dream and this may be your last shot, I'd suggest first getting the rulebook for the tracks in the area, most are NHRA or use those rules.
I'd then also get a basic E.T. HP calculator. They used to be slide wheels, but now is a simple computer program.
At this point, figure out how much time and money is available, and what speeds you can afford.
The car weight, driver ability, rules requirements will all point toward a realistic plan, whether that's a refresh of the 413, building the red ram, swapping in a SBC or going all out and redoing the chassis, building 2 engines, coupling and trans. Don't forget a tow vehicle, trailer, tools, spares, maintenance and all the safety stuff, including recert. Car is currently set up with a radiator/cooling system. This messes with the look, but would be simpler than running alky in a dry engine. You could do it alone. It's much harder to deal with a tow it back car alone. If you still want to run 2 rams on gas, either add more cooling or you will need a crew or both.
You don't have a location listed, but if there is a local track with a driver course, that would be a good start to your new venture.

 

You have a cool project, weather you use the Hemi or stick with the 413. Is much as I like Early Hemis, I would be real tempted to run to get that dragster running with the 413. Building the Hemi may take more time then you think. Even things like forged pistons can take 6 plus months these days.

 

The link is for GM engines. If your ultra bell is for Chevy to PG, you'll need a 392 to Chevy adaptor to mate the hemi to it. If just an example, and you don't actually have that one, you would need it for the 392.

 

Yup! All hemis are 392s!

 

My 331 grew up to be a 354? Will it later be a 392? When?