Technical Hemi hydraulic lifter problems

I've been collecting parts and getting machine work done for a few years on a '57 dodge 325 hemi. I finally got it on the run stand a few days ago. I got it running and did a 20 minute cam break in. The whole time it sounded like a solid lifter cam with about .030 lash. I had carefully set the pre load to .050, but decided I should recheck the adjustment. So when the lifters were on the low side of the lobe there still is about .060-.070 of plunger travel and it is easy to push them down and that's after .050 pre load. I went through the whole process again and ran the engine again and had the same result. I pulled the intake and valley cover and took a couple of lifters out. They look fine inside and had some oil in them. After putting them back together, I put one in oil and pumped it up until there was no air. I used a dial indicator and the plunger would travel about .120, and the one with no oil would go down .170. Anyone ever run into this type of situation? I never have. Not sure what to think. New lifters sound like a plan, but I've always heard never put new lifters on a used cam. This is a Neilson regrind that was on the shelf a long time. I don't want to trash it. Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated.

 

Tell me more about the cam. It sounds like the lobe profile is for a solid lifter. A friend of mine with a 315 hemi drove himself crazy with this about a year ago. He had a custom grind cam of 210/210 .430. He was lucky enough to find a nos spd-4, swapped cams and the problem immediately disappeared. Comparing lobe ramps, a solid lifter cam has a quicker action while a hydraulic lifter cam has a slower action to allow the lifter to pump up and maintain pressure. Hope this helps.

 

It' a hydraulic cam, the problem is the lifters are not pumping up and always have to much plunger travel. I've never run into this before and I am not sure what's going on. I have heard there was some problems with hot heads lifters.

 

What was your pre-lube sequence? How did you prime the hemi oil system?

 

I have an old distributer that I used with a drill. I rotated the engine and had good oil pressure and oil to the rockers. But even out of the engine the lifters won't pump up more than .050. Still a lot of travel left.

 

Understand. My friend went through two sets of lifters, both hot heads and NOS VL8s and it ended up being the ramp of the cam lobe. The profile was for a solid lifter but he was using hydraulic lifters. The cam was sold to him as a hydraulic lifter profile. My friend spend so much time and money buying adjustable pushrods, replacing lifters and pulling his hair out only to find out one he installed an NOS tall deck Dodge cam, the problem immediately went away and he was able to return to stock pushrods...and has been driving noise free for over a year now. We learned of the what was causing the issue when we talked with a builder who specializes in gen 2 hemi builds where most of his customers want to eliminate the maintenance of a solid lifter and run a hydraulic profile. My advice would be to swap the cam with a confirmed hydraulic profile or find a NOS SPD-4. Regrinds get tricky too, if too much of the base circle was removed, you may have excess clearance issues. Hope this helps.

 

Did you soak your lifters in oil and pump them up while thay were submurged? This is what i was told to do back in auto shop.

 

I have never had to do that. I just set the preload and they pump up to it when the engine is primed and then running. But when I took one out today I put it in oil and pumped it up all the air was out and it would still compress .120 thousands. only .050 thousands of oil is being left to cushion.

 

Same issue here. I have problem at startup with the valvetrain rattling. After about 5 minutes It quiets down. If I shut the motor down and restart it rattles for a short time then quiets. Lifters are not pumping up. My read on what the problem is I discovered the late model lifters have an oil band that is higher than the stock OE lifters. The oil band on the stock OE lifters are lower than the stock lifter. So the moder hyd lifter is not fully lining up on the oil galley. This misalignment I’d delaying the oil from fully pumping up the lifter.fully lines up . The modern lifter oil band partially clears the oil galley.

I located several sets of stock Hemi (Desoto), sent them to Oregon Cam to have them restore the crown for breakin. Here’s a comparison of the two. The stock OE is the lower of the two.

I also spaced out some stock pushrods and sent an order in to Smith Brothers to have them made.

 

I have read of that problem with the oil inlet , but it seems like a lot of people are running them. And I still think that the lifter should pump up solid compressing it in a container of oil.

 

Hey, 1935ply;
"I've always heard never put new lifters on a used cam."
Somebody had it mixed up. You should never put used lifters on a new cam, nor mix-up used lifters on the used cam lobes. The convex surface isn't right, & worn, will chew up lobes n lifters. Of course, there is always someone who breaks the "rule" & gets away w/it.
Marcus...

 

I had Oregon Cam refurbish the lifters by taking them apart and matching the bottom of the lifter and putting a crown on the face. Then they are cleaned and shipped back. Just have to go through the cam breakin procedures. Nothing wrong with replacing lifters as long as they are correctly machined and you follow cam breakin procedures.

 

The cam only has about 30 minutes on it. I probably will try a new set of lifters. Guess there is not many made in the u.s. anymore,\.

 

If it’s not the wrong lifters so the oil holes and gallery don’t line up I’d be worried about oil feed to the lifter gallery. I can’t think of any other reason for your symptoms apart from the way oil gets into the lifter. All sixteen being collapsed seems unlikely how old are they?

 

Biggest question to me is, why won't a lifter pump up solid in an oil bath outside the engine? Should have nothing to do with the oil groove location or gallery oiling.
I use my drill press (not running of course) to prep lifters. Set them upright in a pan of oil that covers them. Chuck a pushrod in the drill press and use it to pump oil into them. I've never encountered any 'play' once done.

 

This is my question also. If they don't pump up in a container of oil the other things are irrelevant. I used that same method with a rod in the drill press and no good results. I never had any problems before with hydraulic lifters that I had to do any research on them. I guess I will get a new set and try them. Not sure were to source them from?

 

The lifters are new, bought in January of 21, from Hot Heads Hemi. I have read of other problems with lifters from them in the past. I have good oil pressure, flow to the rockers and when I took the lifters apart there was oil in them, they just won't hold enough to make up more than .050 of the .170 plunger travel.

 

When you took them apart was the check valve/ball there?

If you fill one with oil and compress the plunger does it squirt oil out of the hole ?

 

The check ball is in place and it seems to not let compressed air go thru it. Can't tell if oil is coming thru the hole I used a solid rod to push the plunger down.

 

It's been a whole lot of years since I've done a cam and lifter change but I recall pre-pumping the lifters in an oil bath before dropping 'em in. The oil level was low enough that I could clearly see the air bubbles escape as I manually compressed each lifter. But I noticed that as often as not, the last bubble would hang on at the lifter and get*****ed back in when I released the pressure off the lifter. My recall is rather hazy but I think it had something to do with whether the final push was a full or a partial stroke. I remember being frustrated by the bubble hanging on and*****ing back in no matter what I tried. I think I wound up just knocking that last bubble off as best I could with a probe....... probably leaving a microbubble still in the lifter passageway.

 

Did you try blowing through the hole in the side?

 

I have not tried that. Are you talking about a clean lifter with no oil and seeing if air comes out of the top?

 

one other thing, make sure your new lifters have a crown at the bottom of the cam. The crown is machined to allow the lifter to spin on the cam lobe during breakin. To check tak two lifters and abut the bottom to bottom. If they have a slight rock and don’t about flat they are good lifters. We’ve found most of the so called new lifters, mostly made off shore lack a crown. Many of these lifters have caused cams lobes to go flat in a short amount of time. Also, I was always taught to never let your engine idle for excessive periods of time after breakin. Good rule of thumb is to set your breakin period at 500 miles. If you run your motor at idle, let’s say to warm it up in cold weather set the idle at high RPM 1500 to 2000. This allows the lifters to continue to spin on the lobe. I don’t profess to being a master engine builder, just sharing tips from a Stock Eliminator engine builder who has over 50 years of experience.

 

There has been a couple recent threads about how the rockers take quite a while to fully fill and get all the air out. It sounds like you addressed that. Not bench filling the lifters before hand makes me wonder if this would go away after a longer running in, but I understand 20 minutes should have plenty. I'd be concerned too. Are new lifters available and in budget? What's the oil pressure at idle and up at say 1800 RPM? Were all oil gallery plugs installed correctly?

 

At rest you should be able to blow through the hole at the side and it come out the top, doesn’t mater if it has oil in or not.

 

Hey, dart4;
You're correct. I should've stated that used lifters need re-finishing. Unless, they go back onto the exact same lobe they came off of, &, neither/none is worn beyond usefulness. Which includes crown-loss & taper-loss. To me, a used lifter is just that - used, w/o being re-crowned. Kinda figured that was self-evident. No problem, clarification is always good.
Marcus...

 

Yeah Marcus, I’m with you. Having heard many horror stories of wiped out lobes I decided to use the tried and true OE Hemi lifters. Cost me about $100 to have the lifters refurbish but worth it for the piece of mind.

I’ll test out my theory of the lifter pimp up problem when I get the pushrods from Smith Brothers

 

Lifter should pump up hard on the bench. If it doesn't, something is causing it inside the lifter.

 

What other MOPAR lifters will interchange with yours? I seem to remember using 360 Dodge lifters in a 331 Chrysler hemi in a pinch

 

This has been covered a dozen times....the only correct lifter is the oem design NOT the post 62 LA. The B&RB lifter up to 1967 is the same. VL-8 or some version of the***-812. Comp Cams '812' is NOT usable as it is a gm part.


More conversation here: Technical - 1956 354 Hemi | The H.A.M.B. (jalopyjournal.com)

MaMopar is quite specific about NOT pre-filling lifters after a rebuild, rather let it run and fill up as the oil gets there. This can take 30 minutes and yes, it sounds horrible....
If a cam has been reground then you will need something to compensate for loss of base circle, usually adjustable pushrods. This also applies to using a lifter that is too short but that will not help the oil feed groove being in the wrong place.