Technical 4-point seat belts

Full disclosure, my belts are there for others as I won't wear it. If I'm gonna get whacked in it I'd prefer not to be the 2nd item on steering mast shish-kabob because I was stuck there. All of the above, lack of crumple zones, wood in places and more? Sorry, knock me out of the way, let me get out fast if it rolls over, and if the worst of the worst happens nothing is gonna save me. Still so many won't even ride around the block without so there they are.

 

All statistics confirm that being ejected from a vehicle in a crash is nearly uniformly fatal.

When it is not, it is worse than death. Those who survive often have a radically diminished quality of life, and become a burden on their families and caregivers.

That's the choice you are making.

 

I used to be one of the hold outs who hated the thought of wearing a seat belt and would not do it. Then as the current craze of texting while driving.......on both sides of the yellow line became more prevalent......I realized it was time to rethink my position. I hate to admit it, but I now buckle up without the wife telling me to, and it honestly isn't as bad as I thought. The idea of exiting a vehicle thru the windshield just doesn't seem as adventuresome as it once did. Here is a great video that might make you think differently about things.

Embrace Life - always wear your seat belt - Bing video

If that didn't, then maybe this one will. It's graphic........
www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=seatbelt+video&&mid=32A3FD81763B7790EDB632A3FD81763B7790EDB6&&FORM=VRDGAR

 

I see the seat belt debate hasn't changed in the 20 years I've been on this board.
For that matter, the debate concerning roll bars/roll cages in street cars or race cars hasn't changed much either.

So much stuff concerning both subjects, from either side, is still based on the opinion of the individuals, as it should probably be. The sad part is most think everyone should fall in line with their opinion. That hasn't changed either.

Most of the statics we see covering these two topics are limited to the number of deaths, or the number of serious injuries. No one seems to collect the statics on those that didn't die or were not injured, but the people that have seen people walk away from some crashes uninjured never forget those instants. Certainly no one is tracking the safety devices (or lack of safety devices) in crashes no one died or where they received no injuries from.

No one seems to want to admit that the people that survived uninjured from any crash may have been very lucky, or had a guardian angle protecting them, or it wasn't their time to die (or which ever view point you chose to follow). I believe if we think about some of the stuff we have seen ourselves and still believe factors other then safety equipment was not involved in those peoples fortunate outcome, we are lying to ourselves.

The bottom line when it comes to safety equipment, we need to add whatever our personal opinion says is required, unless you are racing or street driving and have to meet the required safety protocols of the body covering your activities.

I've been in a few crashes and a few emergency driving situations before. I have a list of things my vehicles will always have (a few are wife required), and a few things they won't have (a roll cage in a street car). You do what you think is right.

I'll refrain from responding from a few of these posts.

 

There is a lot to digest in this thread.

I've often said that the technology exists to make street cars safe to the point that virtually all fatalities could be eliminated. But the reality is that the general public has no appetite for the type of vehicle and concessions they'd have to make in order to make that a reality. It's a quid pro quo and a balancing of interests to find an acceptable compromise. The public gets their plush interiors that are quiet, roomy, comfortable and luxurious with rich leather seats that are heated and cooled, stereos that are better than the ones in my house and an interactive info-tainment system. In exchange there is a heightened risk that they could be killed in a car accident, even if advances in safety have come a very long way. This creates an acceptable risk. Yes, a Cup series NASCAR vehicle might be "safer" than the average daily driver, but who would really want to daily drive a stock car?

As you could imagine, I see a lot of this stuff in the course of my work. I recently was consulted on a terribly sad case where 2 young parents were driving in bad weather, unrestrained, and crashed. The husband driver was ejected and killed, his wife was not ejected but suffered catastrophic injuries, and their two toddlers in the back in car seats were virtually unharmed. Now they will grow up without their dad, and with a paralyzed mom. The statistics don't lie. Even if car accidents are still common, which they are, it is far less likely that someone will be seriously injured or killed in a car accident if the available safety equipment is utilized.

 

In racing ,we're driving on the conservative side of having an accident.
The probability is lot higher, but the consequences from them is a lot lower [which is the opposite of driving on public roads]

I love that sensation of a tight Full Harness pegging me into the seat at 1.5g to 1.7g deceleration It is really addictive, when seeing that hairpin corner approaching [and feeling the tyre adhesion in your fingertips on the wheel]

Now I feel absolutely vulnerable not wearing seatbelts [and inertia reel lap/diagonals also feel questionable to me]
Inertia reels are for ease of use and self adjusting . This makes it easier for people to actually use them.

In NZ it has been compulsory to wear front seat belts on all cars manufactured after Jan 1 1955. [retro fitted]
In 1965 it had become a legal requirement for all cars to have front seat belts fitted. But it wasn't until 1975 when you had to wear them. After 1979 they had to be fitted and worn in both the front and rear.

But the legislation didn't work enough ................. It took MacDonalds to step up with a "Make it Click" advertising campaign targeted at the kids [the kids always told their parents to "make it click" before they drive anywhere]

Now these kids are parents...
From the 80's .......

 

Love these threads I always learn something, I believe that using safety equipment is and should be a personal choice. I personally wear my belt. I have two cars in various states of construction I have OT convertible that has a very low waist line no way to install a three point system unless I put a roll bar in it - which I may As it stands now if I roll it’s not going to be pleasant I’m already too short. More than likely I will install a 5 point harness roll bar or not. My early a body dart will get a three point belt system. As far as belts go it really depends on the nature of the wreck. My next youngest brother wouldn’t be here if he was wearing a belt when a convertible Camaro he was in hit a tree at a high rate of speed 60 + mph the car was about half its original length afterwards no one in the front seats would’ve survived. I extracted my one and only person from a wreck while serving on a VFD. This person had their belt on and was dead. This was a head on wreck the other driver was ejected and also dead. Ya rolls the dice and ya takes your chances.
Dan

 

Injuries and fatalities per mile traveled are indeed tracked.

When seatbelt use was made mandatory, injuries and fatalities dropped, and stayed down.

 

I guess I’m a little unusual. In 1957 when I was 7 years old my Dad and his friend decided to take flying lessons. After the first experience with light aircraft turbulence they became believers in seat belts. They went to the pilots store and bought front and rear belts for the cars and put them in. Their work trucks too. It wasn’t about “safety” so much as staying in the seat and maintaining control. It was some years before they were even optional in most cars ( 56 fords excluded).

Dad was the “man “ and brother and I never questioned it. We just wore them. Even now I feel naked in a car, or a backhoe, or pretty much anything without a belt. I never put one in the golf cart, but if I’d driven it on the street (legal with license in Palm Desert CA) I would have had them there too.

 

This is an undeniable fact. The other side of the coin is that when seatbelts became mandatory, the number of disabling injuries increased greatly. Reducing the speed limit had the same effect. Eventually, the speed limit has crept back up. Just as the use of seat belts has been slowly slipping. They are treating a symptom not the problem. If they would enforce the driving laws, they might not need as many nanny state laws to try and protect us from ourselves. If anyone one has ever been in an incident and was subjected to fire or water while unable to free themselves from the restraint system, they probably have a different perspective than the people that were saved by the same system. Bottom line, no one safety measure works in every situation.

 

They are designed to be universally fitting to most body types/sizes
And easy to wear/put on
If you had a race type harness in a street car you probably won't use it [after the novelty wears off]
They are a P.I.T.A to strap in [but easy to get out]

In NZ we lost that personal choice when the Govt picked up the tab on our hospital bills.
They pay, so their rules [actually our rules]
The same applied to helmet laws as well
We use to have helmet exemptions on medical grounds [suddenly all the biker gangs got migraine headaches because they couldn't scratch their dandruff while wearing a helmet]
The Govt soon stopped this as well

I am surprised that insurance companies haven't jumped on this [the moment the seatbelt is removed you're uninsured]

Like most forms of progress, it does require some intervention/regulation or else we simply ignore it

 

A friend of mine raced open wheel sprint cars for a couple years. naturally you had to wear belts and harnesses. on the street he would not where them. I said to him on the track you have all pro drivers and going in the same direction. on the street you have a bunch of idiots going in all directions. Still have to make him buckle up when he is in my cars????? I dont get it.

 

I wrecked a 69 340 Swinger at almost 100 MPH. Rain had washed sand out on the road. Several days later when it was dry, and I was trying for a personal LSR, I hit the sand and the car took off sliding. Took out a fire hydrant that sheared the front spindle off, that ripped a hole in the side of the car and pinched my left foot between the clutch pedal. Only harm I received. By now my feet were no where near pedals, so no braking. Kept sliding and the roof hit a now limb crushing it back a foot or more. If your hands were on the wheel, they were outside of the car. The front left side of the front end hit the trunk of the tree and crushed it back to the fender well. Then the car spun into a hedge row where it stopped. The cop said it was the worse accident he had ever seen where the driver lived, much less was walking around with no blood. I think 68 or 69 was the first year they offered shoulder belts and my car had them, and I always used them, still do.

 

A friend in high school wrecked his 67 GTO convertible. It wound up going nose first into a bank and flipped several times end for end. He said, “ the first time over, I just dropped out”. The cop said not having his belt on saved him. I still wear my belt, even in my 68 Formula S convertible. I’m too fat to just drop out.

 

I was in the passenger rear seat, my friend who was in the passenger front seat ended up behind the driver who stayed in place. We all escaped mostly uninjured . That has been 45 years ago and it was a long time before I would even ride with someone else driving. No one was buckled in ! I guess the top kept us in .

 

Opinion, indeed. That isn't to say that opinion isn't subject to analysis. How safe is safe? It is probably impossible to pin down, but it's not the length of a piece of string either. Two factors I can think of — there are probably more:

1. To what extent does the activity involve people other than yourself?
2. To what extent is the activity really, practically, realistically optional?

The two tie into one another. In both cases having the freedom to assess risk for yourself as you see fit presupposes that you have a real, practical, realistic option to refuse if the risk is unacceptable to you, be that as driver, passenger, other motorist, or pedestrian. (This also doesn't even begin to factor in people whose ability to assess risk is limited, like small children.)

That the more truly optional motoring is, for everybody involved, the less reasonable draconian safety requirements become is why I favour environments and contexts which try to make motoring as truly optional as possible. It is another of a long list of considerations which all point to the same kind of urban model. It differs a lot from what most of us in the so-called New World know.

 

Well rather than take the socially conforming position I prefer that in something this old with no collapsible column and other considerations I prefer the option of having my big ass shoved to the other side, rolled over, or any other ending position that might result from some fuck head slamming into me cuz he didn't pay attention to what he was doing. Will I get hit perfectly head on at 70 MPH? 1 in 2,100,863,221 odds against. These are old cars. They're not made to save you, you have to consider saving yourself. Can you? Always? Probably not always but if I had the choice of being skewered by door wood in an old Packard because I got hit in the side, or getting knocked over to the other side, I'll take the knock. Everybody should operate every vehicle WITHIN THEIR OWN COMFORT AND ABILITIES. I'm not in favor of handing the keys to a car with 500+HP to someone who panics on a fuckin golf cart. Get it?

 

Regarding young women not wearing seat belts I believe Princess Diana was not wearing hers when she was involved in that Paris crash that claimed her life.

 

Unless you have a ratchet lap belt it takes two people to properly strap in a five-point harness. If you can just sit down in the seat and latch them they're way too loose.

Proper harness procedure is to loosen the adjusters every time you get out and retighten them when you get back in. Sans ratchet adjuster that requires a strong helper to pull on the tail of the lap belt.

 

Just look at it like this " whatever safety equipment you have it is better than being on a motorcycle " all fear gone !

 

All of the data is incontrovertible, no matter how much opinion, conjecture, speculation, or feelings anyone throws at it.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but nobody is entitled to their own facts.

One of the absolute blessings and complete curses of this nation is that everyone has the freedom and liberty to be as wrong as they want to be.

Often the downside of that is the risk of harm to others, or the actual harm of others.

I'm fine with it if you have made a conscious decision to harm yourself.

If you have true disregard for others, you are likely a sociopath. But hey, thanks for at least making that known.

 

The crux of the safety equipment issue is how far do we mandate safety? Do we mandate safety belts and then what type for a minimum? I’ve stated before I wear a seat belt, but I believe it’s a personal choice and here’s why. If you drive anything that doesn’t have at minimum a 3 point belt , air bags all around, crash avoidance system, crumple zones, collapsible steering column and so on you are not as safe as you could be. Most of the vehicles discussed on this forum are not very safe by modern standards! Should anything built before 2010 be illegal to drive on the highway I think NOT! I agree with the premise of not endangering others however personal safety equipment or lack of doesn’t generally affect others. If your car can’t stop in 120 ft at 60 mph are you endangering others by driving said car?
Any way I hope the OP got the answer he was looking for. I know I learned a few things.
Dan

 

That mounting is horrible in more ways than I care to explain.

 

I guess I don’t understand, looks to use the existing mounts for the lap belt and then adds a mount for the shoulder harness. I’m no seat belt authority however I don’t see how this design can’t be better than a simple lap belt. I doubt it’s up to race car sanctioning body standards but still think it’s better tan a simple lap belt.
Dan

 

Yes, at slow to moderate speeds it's better than just a lap belt.

I can't tell you at exactly what speed the low-mounted shoulder harness will buckle the seat and cause injury to the occupants' backs. Or if the mounting point will tear out of the floorpan before that happens.

Long story short, there is a speed or force of impact where one of those two things will happen.

 

Thanks for the clarification.
Yes I see it now , how a low mounting point for the shoulder belt can cause problems. The 5 point system I looked at for my OT car does mount the shoulder belts on the bulk head, not quite as high as the shoulder but not on the floor either , the system I looked at is what the guys who race cars like my OT use.
Dan

 

I saw a guy get chucked out of a 69' Cutlass dirt Street Stock at much less than 140mph when an anchor point through the floor failed. I was like twelve years old. It made an impression.

 

There was a figure-8 driver, he was a little guy, weighed all of maybe 115 lbs. He got into a wreck and the rescue guys went to all the cars involved. His car.... he was not in the seat... he had slid completely out of his belts. Few had the submarine strap back then.

 

I went by what Wesco recommended for the shoulder mount location. It turned out to be perfect, everyone comments on how good the belts fit.

I located mine in the B pillar, I had to drill a larger hole low on the pillar and fish the plate up. It looked like the 2 thru holes were for #10 hardware, it was perfect to tap for a 1/4-28. I used grade-8 hardware to lock it in place.

On the floor I had used some big and thick strut bar washers. They were close to 5/16" thick and round. I had seen guys use square plates with no radius, a real bad idea.

 

The idea of a rollbar being more dangerous on the street is based on the simple fact you're not wearing a helmet on the street, and the tubing is closer to your noggin than the door frame or other stock car parts.
As for race belts vs. stock belts it's a different scenario. Race belts are going to protect you better than factory 2 or 3 point belts regardless. But running race belts will also require you to have a rollbar to attach the shoulder belts to, so it's not just adding race belts.
I have a rollbar and 4 point belts in my Austin gasser that sees lots of street driving. But my '39 Chev gasser has no rollbar, so I only have lap belts that are old race belts since there's no place to secure the shoulder belts.