Projects Sprint Car - Clutch in a tight space

Great car! Lucky you!
Since you are into this, I presume that you are aware of what was used behind Ford 4 cylinder cars back in the day?
An Offy style cut down internal spline clutch can and all steel multi disc clutch pack.
Maybe an auto trans flex plate could be sandwiched between the can and the crank to engage a starter?
There may be a way to adapt that can to your 6 cyl. crank.
I have one for my car and can post pics if you need a visual.
May or may not be feasible, just throwing it out there.

 

Thanks Rusty. I would love to get some more details and pictures of how you have achieved it, if possible please? Is it a commercially available item, or a home made setup?
Mark

 

Thanks!
No, I haven't seen what the 4cyl cars used. I'm totally new to this style of car and over here int he UK there are not many around, so I am making it up as I go pretty much. Any info greatly received - the simpler the better!

 

Back around 1985 I built a dirt latemodel that was powered by a big block Mopar engine that was mounted in the chassis backwards. It drove off the nose of the crankshaft, no room for a conventional bellhousing/clutch. It also needed to start and move onto the track without help from a push truck, my solution was a homemade transmission that was basically in/out direct drive but with a motorcycle clutch built into a countershaft...



The case was made from 1/8" steel sheet. A hand operated master cyl applied pressure to the aluminum cylinder on the right side, which in-turn squeezes the motorcycle clutch in the middle of the countershaft. The long rod extending from the left side of the box was hooked to a shifter that moved the slider to engage direct.

Basically you start the engine in neutral, then apply pressure to the clutch to get the car moving. After the car is moving fast enough, move the shifter to engage direct.

Grant

 

Have you ever seen or driven anything with a Bert transmission?

They are more like driving a Model T than a modern manual, use put the car in gear than push the clutch half way to start rolling, once you hit 3,000 R.P.M. you let off the clutch and throttle and jam it in high gear.

They take some getting used to, I have seen guys tear them up rolling around the pits!

 

@Little Terry
Here are the parts I have from my sprint car 4 cylinder engine.
The clutch setup is based on an early 1928 Model A Ford multi disc clutch and flywheel.
Ford changed to single disc clutch in an effort to eliminate oil contamination from the rear main fouling the fiber discs that alternated with steel discs in the stock stack.
The majority of the heavy flywheel was turned off leaving just the splined can. But this did away with the flywheel ring gear needed for the starter. Not an issue with a push start car.
The clutch on mine has the fiber discs replaced with all steel, so it locks up.
The trans is a small Model A with just two forward gears. It also has the input shaft to match the center of the clutch pack.
You have an in and out box, but they were also used and adapted to the 4 cylinders.
There were also adapters to mate the Chev 6 cyl. to the Ford trans. I had one thinking it was for 4 cyl., but sold it when I found out it was for a 6.
This stuff is out there, just hard to find. You might be ahead figuring out how to adapt the Tilton or Bert setup.

Here is the cut down clutch can with timing marks


The all steel clutch pack


The Model A trans and housing. The aluminum adapter did away with the iron flywheel housing

 

I built it. I will find some pictures

 

I did a build thread here on the hamb——save of the day(single seater)
I know there are pictures of the set up somewhere in the thread. It’s long, 40 some pages.

 

@Little Terry the Model A trans case is very small about 6 inches long give or take and you can put a cut down V8 cluster gear in there and V8 gears you'd have second and high gear.
@Weedburner didn't you also have a double rotary at one time?

 

I would think a custom made bellhousing (very short) with a small flywheel and clutch plus a 2 speed transmission could be fitted in.
You have 1"forward, 1"rearward and the length of the in/out box to play with.
You may need to create your own 2 speed trans but that isn't as hard as most people think.
For starting is can fit a generator? If so search Dynastaetrs. https://www.google.com/search?q=dyn...INDA0M2owajeoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

I'm working through it page by page - what a great build and car. Thanks for making me aware of it.

 

That sounds like it could work. I would just need to find or make a short bellhousing. I will look into it, thanks.

 

Thanks! I have never heard of a Dynastarter but in principle it sounds like a great solution for starting the motor. As long as I can fit a clutch in I only really need one gear. I'm now wondering if an overcentre clutch and direct drive shaft may be enough to make the car usable. I suppose the only issue is that it would limit my diff ratio if I am trying to pull away in 1:1 gear.

If i fit a hand clutch it could be difficult trying to operate that and a shifter at the same time! And there isn't much room down there for a clutch pedal. Hmmm, I need to start doing some drawings.

 

Nice looking car, always good to see a car Jim Etter once owned. Over the years Jim and I bought and sold parts and parts of cars, he collected a lot of stuff long before there was an internet. Good luck with tour starter clutch project. Bob

 

Thanks Bob. good to hear from you. Sadly Jim had passed away before I owned the car. I would have loved to talk to him about it and hear the story of where he found it. Mark

 

The bert transmission has to be among the most reliable racing components ever produced, to tear one up would take some serious abuse by a totally unskilled operator!

 

I have seen it several times @Jay McDonald I have also seen the same people week in, and week out not be able to shift into high gear once they exit pit road, stall the car on the track and have to be push started or flat out pushed off the track so the green flag can be thrown, there are people who never get the hang of it.


@Little Terry how to get rolling with a Bert
Billy Pauch the 3rd explaining the Bert watch until the end -

 

Not sure if this style concept has already been discussed.
If you don't need a 2 speed ..... what about a lightweight flywheel and clutch arrangement with either a hand or foot operated release lever. Both styles could have a simple detent/hook to hold the clutch in the disengaged position and then an in/out box is no longer required. The torque tube universal joint could then be coupled directly to a custom input shaft (candlestick) behind its rear support bearing that's mounted in the back of the bellhousing ..... very much like an old Top Fuel direct drive. The torque tube clamshell could also be adapted directly to the back of the bellhousing. Not sure whether a custom/fabricated bellhousing is required or whether an OEM type could be acceptable/adaptable.
The starter could also be a remote unit much like a blower starter if that is acceptable otherwise incorporate it into the bellhousing like normal. Use an accessible/exposed Anderson plug for a remote battery connection if that's acceptable too.
I understand that there is a lot of custom engineering required here but that too is part of the race car building fun.
Good luck.

 

I think the fastest and easiest thing to do @Little Terry is to find a transmission that will work/fit have a normal foot clutch inside the car and mount a master cylinder with a hand brake to frame rail.

A hand brake was a very common practice in open wheel racing from the very early days





Note hand brake-


And clutch pedal

 

@Little Terry Given if era of your car I am thinking the rear is set up for a Ford style torque tube if so and you want to stay period correct my I suggest trying a Cyclone Blue Flame Chevy/G.M.C. 6 to Ford transmission adapter.




This is one of mine and how I did it-



Ford pressure plate and clutch disc


Speedway pilot bushing same as SBC to early Ford


Flywheel redrilled/nutserts pressed in (N.O.S. SCHIEFER aluminum flywheel) redrilled and tapped for a Ford Pressure plate-


This is my other Cyclone Chev/G.M.C. to early Ford if you notice this one still has the "stock" bottom ring. Most of them had it cut off.
The ring was cut off because it limits you to a 9.5 inch clutch.

 

This how Bruce Johnston did it in the sprint/champ car he ran a GMC in until he passed away. Cyclone adapter to his GMC and a pre 54 Chev transmission to the torque tube. Ran Bonneville and El Mirage for years and never broke. The stock head GMC had injectors and ran on methanol.

 

Thanks Robert. The car already has a hand brake as well as the foot brake, so I could remove the foot portion quite easily to make space for a clutch. Those pictures are great by the way.

The issue I am facing is the length of transmission that I can fit. I have a spare Ford 3 speed that I could use, but it’s like 12” or more in length and I only have around 9” of space, including a bellhousing or adapter. A Cyclone adapter would be a good start if I could find one, but then I have to work on how to fit a small transmission in there. Thanks so much for the ideas so far guys. Mark

 

Easy option, swap the six to a Chevy four

Plenty of room then even for an parking brake and an outside handbrake.

 

haha I’m not old enough for a 4cyl yet!

 

The one I got rid of was a Speed Gems brand rather than Cyclone.. dumb me.
If you can find the 6 cyl adapter, you may can use the V8 big truck hogs head to reduce down to the short Model A trans. Probably have to use single disc 9.5” clutch instead of multi disc.

 

No need to find a Cyclone. Make or buy a GMC to Chevy V8 trans adaptor. They are 5/8" or so plate drilled for Chevy/GMC 6 and V8 trans. Then find a SBC to Flathead adaptor. You'll get a much bigger clutch that way, Cyclone will only fit up to 9 1/2".

 

Here's a little video I took of you at Pendine, I'll be dragging my 4 banger Chevy junk down there for an attempt at the slowest speed in a few weeks.

 

Lot's of really great ideas. Choose one. I have two X-Shift 3 speed plus reverse transmissions. One open drive in a supermodified and one closed drive for an offset sprint roadster I intend to build. Saginaw gears and a 38 Chevy shifter. Both cars hand clutch and not for the street. Don't even bother to trying to find an X-Shift. Chevy bolt pattern. Will bolt up to some GMC bell housings .

 

I like the 37 Packard trans. Close ratio and very strong gears. 1 1/8-10 spline. Same as early Chevy. Might be a little shorter than an early Ford. Had one adapted to this Jimmy. Used it behind a 308 Hudson Hornet engine with a 2 disc Quartermaster clutch. My adapter plate.

 

So a Cyclone type bellhousing and an early Ford transmission would be about 6 inches longer than the current. From your first pics I think it seems you could shorten the torque tube that much. Is there something I’m not seeing?