Technical SBC long to short water pump

@tomcat11 I prefer not to bolt stuff to exhaust/header bolts. They are under enough stress, especially in this application (long unsupported headers). They already have to deal with heat and vibration, now it's also being pulled another direction with more vibrations.
It seems any short wp setup is either out in the wind past the head on the exhaust, tucked under the head (frame too narrow, from the notes) or up on top custom that has limited belt to WP.
The whole point is to take advantage of the wide, deep, cheap aftermarket support for all things SBC.
I appreciate the different suggestions, but it seems I'd only gain some clearance going short. Mounts are not great, can't run a clutch fan, shroud is about the same amount of custom work.

 

DO NOT buy a Zipps riser for a T radiator. This is for a tall skinny radiator, like a 30-31 A or a 32. You will have a fan sticking above the radaitor and you won't be able to use an upper radiator hose etc.

FWIW, I'm using a short water pump, generic chrome pulleys, and an 8" late model balancer with no issues.

 

I could send you this fan....if you make sure it'll fit

 

@squirrel thank you for the offer! Seems I could use it, but let me figure out where and how to get the cooler set up before I commit to tearing out the water pump and brackets. One kind member caught that 'mount it under' and PM'ed me a warning. The hoses currently run through the motor mount, so it's plan before cutting the plastic mounts and disconnecting it, bleeding all over the floor. I'm trying hard not to zip tie engineer this. Too many have before! I'd rather not hang it in place of the fan in front!
It's running enough for short jaunts, and I don't want another dead in the garage project.
Speaking of, it's cooling off out there, time for another putt!

 

No problem. It's your car and your call but I don't think the heat, vibration, and stress is really an issue for a mount like that. You have a 3/8" Thick header flange bolted to the head (albeit aluminum) with 6 3/8-16 bolts. It is solid and not going anywhere. You should find a way to support the collector end of the headers though. The welds will fatigue eventually. Remember Chevy hung heavy cast iron manifolds on both Iron and Aluminum heads with the exhaust hanging from them. The the belt tension is pulling towards the head not away.

Having the alternator in the wind keeps it cooler. The extra clearance of the short pump gives some room and flexibility to run that really nice Squirrel fan or one like it with a nice shroud.

Besides that whole wide, deep, cheap aftermarket support aint really helping. As you were sir...

 

heh...in the old days guys would toss the stock brackets, I always saved them. But they're all gone now.

 

Any thing in this pile look like it could help out?

 

that's all AC stuff...except for the PS pump, of course

 

Well, went over and visited member @Jacksmith, a couple miles away.
Had a nice talk and when I got back, I checked the actual temp of the engine with an infrared temp gun I just replaced the battery in. Gauge said 220, gun said 145. So maybe it's not getting as hot as I thought.

Old proverb: Man with one watch always knows what time it is. Man with two watches is not sure.

 

Yeah, it seems the long pump is going to be easier, cheaper and so long as a fan fits, it's going to work.
Definitely going to make up some supports. It's on the list!

 

Billet, baby! And peach/turquoise swoops!

 

@saltflats thank you too! I think it's as Jim says, not what I need, but appreciate the thought!

 

I'll look around I may have more and some short pump pulleys.

 

Don't worry. It seems that in the Long VS Short, I'd gain under 2 inches of space, but have a harder time getting a bracket and tucking the alt in. It also doesn't change the fan. So I plan on getting an early 70s long WP with the mount tab, a regular 69-74 bracket set (probably chrome, it's about the same money and the rest of the engine has it) and a fan. Same belt, no pulleys to buy and swap, same bolts. Have to move the cooler either way. Shroud is similar, have to make it.
I won't stop a guy from looking thru his stuff and maybe even organizing it (shudder!) but I'm good.

 

Lol

 

These were used on the 70-72 C10 pickups, with a short water pump, available new and used.

https://images.holley.com/583x/absb072_01.jpg

 

RSR, just saw this post. Day late and a dollar short...

Interesting tidbit about small block Chevy engines. Well, at least the 2 piece rear main seal block versions, so your engine, if it's a 1 piece rear main seal version I don't know if this holds true for them.

Regardless of the size of the damper, ie diameter and thickness, the front face is essentially a set distance from the front of the block to the front of the damper where the pulleys bolt on.

Here's a picture of the 1958 283 in the Whatever project. I just ran out and made 2 measurements. The distance from the front of the block where the pump bolts on to the front of the pulley/fan hub is 5-5/8 inches. This is a short water pump.


What you see here is a front crossmember that measures 7-5/8 inches between the front of the block to the crossmember. That fan has plenty of clearance to the crossmember. With a double pulley system, and an aftermarket aluminum short water pump, you can run 2 belts, one just to drive the water pump, tensioning that belt by adjusting the water pump. Stewart makes a really good quality adjustable part, but it's spendy. Then you run the 2nd belt and don't have to worry about driving the pump with it, so the belt can be tensioned properly to drive the alternator.

However, there is another option for an alternator. Powermaster makes a setup that uses one of the Denso style mini alternators that is driven by a short belt from the water pump to alternator. The bracketry bolts on to the front of the water pump and tucks the alternator close to the left or right head. It's designed for the short water pump and will space the fan forward about another 3/4 inch.

Hope this helps you figure out what to do with the alternator.

 

The only real issue that you might have is the location of the timing mark on the damper. A lot of 350's with long pumps had the timing mark at 12 oclock on TDC on #1.
I put the the short pump off the 71 350 on a later 350 when I put it in my 71 3/4 ton and then figured that the timing mark was straight up. Otherwise you just need pulleys for a short pump and figure out how the hell you are going to mount the alternator and life is good.

There are a number of high mount drivers side brackets on Ebay for around 60 bucks for the black ones. If you can do a low mount down on the left side there are some for around 20.

I'm not finding a right hand side bracket for a sbc with a short pump in my quick Ebay search.

I used a smog pump bracket to mount the alternator on the 283 in my 48 back in the 70's but it doesn't allow for enough adjustment with what movement you can get with the alternator and really needed and adjustable idler pulley to adjust the belt. It tucked in real nice on the right hand side though.
Here are the images of the two I mentioned on E bay.

 

Just a brief note to comment on SBC crank dampeners-
The overall length of SBC dampeners is the same, the difference is the thickness of the outer ring.
Uh, oh! @Dave G in Gansevoort posted as I was typing.

 

yeah, this dimension remained the same for decades on the SBC.

 

I'm still anal about brackets and pulleys... I grab em and stash them in the shed , one big container each. Have you guys seen what they want for oem sbc, bbc pulleys and brackets lately? I'm glad you found a solution Rod if you need something different PM me.

 

I have some BBC stuff saved, but the small block stuff is all gone

 

@Algoma56 I hesitated posting an overall shot here, it's more suited to the OT section due to the engine and current temporary rolling stock.
This is why I don't want the alt hanging out over the valve cover with the short pump.
See the breather on the driver side? It would be out from there. Bad enough the coil and M/C on the firewall. Gotta keep it clean and simple.

@Dave G in Gansevoort thanks for the measurements! I know the mini alts will tuck in, but the brackets which I'd want (look older, not billet and street rod) and the lil booger, that's money for other stuff that's higher priority.
@Mr48chev Timing marks are on driver side, shown in picture #2. Not a concern. Tall bracket is like Algoma mentioned. The low bracket is the one that Speedway mentions won't work with a narrow T chassis. I could go with the mini alt, which is mo' money. I've got a working charging system. I want a rewire, wheels 'n tires, paint, etc. before spending on a new bracket set and a mini. It would tuck in though, I think.
@Fordors (and Dave G, plus Jim), thanks for that. That Monza thing was throwing me off. I don't know enough of these details yet.
@lumpy 63 thanks for the offer, I think I've got this figured out. Hope you are enjoying that SD weather! I miss the place I used to live sometimes, but it's not there any more.

I really appreciate all the help navigating this so I don't end up getting stuck with wrong info, wrong or mismatched parts and a torn apart car. I've done the late nights trying to fit the wrong flexplate, pulled a Pantera Dist, to find out the conversion doesn't fit and other 'lessons learned'. Glad to have the experience of others to guide me.

 

I have alternator brackets I got from Summit Racing on both of my cars that bolt to #1 exhaust bolts on my headers. Both cars have fenderwell headers, so lots of weight hanging outside the frame rails, and no problems with the brackets bolted to the header bolts.
I use their 2 piece bracket that works with long or short water pumps, and both of my cars have short water pumps.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-42283/make/chevrolet
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-42273/make/chevrolet
I use the simple chrome adjustment arm with it.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-42263/make/chevrolet

These brackets let you either swing the alternator above the bracket, and the adjustment arm off the top water pump bolt, or hang below the bracket, and the arm off a lower pivot point. I use threaded rod on the water pump bolt so I can put a nut and lock washer on the water pump, and leave enough threads outside to bolt the adjuster arm on so it doesn't affect the way the water pump bolt seals.

 

Let's explain this in picture form.
In a fendered car or truck, that's fine.
For me, an alternator sticking up above the rest of the engine, outside the radiator to cowl line in a t bucket looks like

 

Ahahaha!

 

Ok then.

 

Late to this one. I really like this set up when running a long pump (that has all the mounting holes). Alt still pivot from long bolt going into the head. Super simple and affective. https://ncspeedlab.com/products/alt-bracket-mid-mount-sbc-long-water-pump

Simple to make as well.

 

@Johnny Gee , I like that one!

 

looks like something you could copy....if you had some metal fab stuff....