Art & Inspiration How important are the NHRA frame certifications and how do you pass them?

Thanks.

 

We had salt flat builds at both my old work places.
The first was a basic street car. To fit the rules at the time, a bolt in 4 point cage, race harness and a fiberglass bumper to replace the plastic.
Simple.
The last one I thought was overkill.

When it flipped slowing down from a 240+ mile run amd the driver walked out we realized it wasn’t.

If building a 9 sec car then build it by the recommended specs from the people that have studied cars crashing on tracks since the beginning.
No need to ask opinions here

 

Safety requirements are usually based on speed....so the guys who go land speed racing need serious safety equipment. Not only do things hit harder (think end over end rollovers), but it also takes a lot longer to slow down, and for the rescue guys to get there to put out the fire etc.

 

Yep. Safety rules are created by learning from mistakes/wrecks.
Watched a car barrel roll down the safety barrier. Car slung apart but the cage didn’t.
Seen one skip over the sand pit at the end of the track.
Both guys lived.
Those speeds and momentum’s are probably very similar to land speed.

We have small electric cars at school. 45 is probably the top speed. They still have a small diameter cage, race harness, and shutoff.
Drivers wear gloves, shoes, full helmets and coveralls.

A guy here locally was killed at a 4x4 event. Used cast pipe for a cage. Died in a low speed rollover.

They had to start a minimum tech inspection after that.
Go figure

 

Could you explain why you consider 646 HP as "not working out" ? From what you have written, it's obvious that you are trying to think this thru...... The thing is, with an 8.5 CR this should possibly allow you to drive on the street and use regular gas and still have plenty of power. I think larger cubes with a lower ratio makes a lot of sense with todays gas prices. Sure we all want "MORE" HP..........but at 646 hp its gonna be hard to tame it on any streetable tires. Bump it up to 900 and you'll be detuning it to hook it up. I'd follow the NHRA guidelines for building your car just to try to be safe...........but if you just drive it on the street and go test it somewhere else......maybe you don't need quite as much $$$$ to improve traction and safety. The most HP doesn't always win. I'm still wondering what you feel is wrong with your current engine? Maybe just changing the cam will give you what you want. If you have too much overlap with your cam, it may not work well with a blower or electronic control.

 

A local guy, made his cage from muffler tubing.
Now he is dead.

 

Three pages and 67 posts to answer a pretty simple question. "How important are the NHRA frame certifications and how do you pass them?" Answer: Very and follow the rules to pass them. Done deal. Plus maybe one more thought, "if some is good more is better" But that is just an opinion from a guy who doesn't drag race so what do I know?

 

You could do a 5 or 6 point roll bar, and upgrade to a full cage later, if you so desire. As others have stated, if you can retain the stock floor and firewall, it will be good for 10.00. Here is a 55 I did sometime ago, outriggers on the frame.

 

In a nutshell. The heads are too big for the engine. Not enough velocity thru the carb to pull the fuel. With a 1475 and 108 jets was still going too lean at rpm. To fix it, fuel injection, new heads or a blower. All options would cost about the same. Except I have the blower already. I toned it down some and can spend the money on other improvements. Blower was 37% over driven. Now will be 12% under. The cam will work well with boost. Engine was built to handle power adders like nos or a blower (ie. top quality forged parts, fully studded, the good king bearings, proper clearances). 700 hp was the goal and had the mixture been right, we would have been very close on a 87 octane engine. Driving a big hp engine isn’t that hard. It does take self control and an understanding of what the engine needs to operate properly. Driving it responsibly is a little harder. Let’s hope I’ve grown up since my last high HP car.

 

I didn't read every reply but read a lot. If you go 9.99 or quicker the full cage is only the beginning. Window net, gloves, pants, jacket, shoes, NOMEX, or rendered down about a minimum of $1,500 in personal safety stuff and such including whatever the latest "SNELL" helmet rating is. Big power is no guarantee of sub-10 second times either. Traction, launch control, weight distribution, gearing, suspension management, it's gonna get busy and costly real fast. Am I saying don't do it? Not at all, I'm just trying to keep it less Pollyanna and more realistic. 10.00 flat means a jacket and helmet and an 8pt bar, but it's a job and busy and also has costs to go that fast. Still gotta manage suspension, launch control, slicks and all the extras with just that and more...and more...and, well you get the idea. Again I didn't read it all but even the trans is gonna have needs. Scatter shield, flywheel shield, SFI balancer, no fuel line on the firewall, racebelts, no antifreeze, water only. Don't give up if you want it, but go in aware. The best possible way to sort it all out is go to the track and visit racers who are doi.g what you want and talk to them between rounds when they are waiting or done. Take pictures, and as said above get a recent rule book. You might like going a best of 10.11 better than 9.98, but it still won't be easy nor inexpensive. Good luck.

 

There are two seperate sides with that. What caused the accident is totally different to the effects caused by the accident. The driver and seat being ejected did not cause it to happen, but are a worrying indication that the safety of the build might not have been up to scratch. Accidents are going to happen. It's all about having a good outcome when they do.
This guy was just extremely lucky, and that is not something you want to rely on when it all goes tits up...

 

Thanks. I’m sure I’ve read it in the rule book, but some of it didn’t make the list. Didn’t think about no pump on the firewall. The water only is a pain. I remember it but that’s a royal pain if it’s street driven. I want to make the car legal for what it should be able to do and then set my time accordingly. If it can run 9s, I might just shoot for the 10 flat. Then if it breaks out, at least I won’t get thrown off the track.

 

Wouldn't that still be classed as running sub 10 seconds???

 

you can run an occasional 9 and not get kicked out...some places....

I've run 3 of them on Drag Weeks, and never a problem.

 

That is what I would expect. Now if you ran a 9.15 then you'd probably be gone. Just a little extra all you have to do is dial it back. You're not intentionally hiding the power.

 

I’ve been going to the strip sense 1974 and running on them sense 1977 and I can’t remember the number of times I’ve seen a car go through the lights on it’s roof or tumble down the track after a run. Big slicks and a spool can be a detriment to highest speed handling if you get crossed up at speed.
My OT car has been a 10 second street car from the time I put it together in the eighties. I built a cage and tied the car front to rear, I wouldn’t hesitate to have my grandson make passes in it in a couple years.

 

Had a long talk tonight with Mr. Carzoli. He helped me clear up my mental picture of how to put it together. My plan was good and now it’s better. Basically the cage will be welded to plates and bolted to the floor. There will be connecting braces welded to the plates under them and running to the frame. They will be welded to the frame. Standard 8.50 cage engine low in the mounts, x-frame cross member for trans mount with front driveshaft loop attached. I told him there was a local guy that I was going to talk to and asked if he would recommend anyone in my area to help with the cage and chassis. He said my guy’s name. That made me feel a lot better about the plan adjustments I’ve been leaning toward. Still not going to dial in under 10.0 any time soon. He said go ahead with the 700r4, no transmission lives forever and some will surprise you. The guy he recommended was the guy that built the trans and he apparently knows his stuff. He liked the mini tubs and tires in the 10.5 to 12 inch wide range as a little slip can be more forgiving And something that came up in conversation was he mentioned someone had a notebook with all their SFI cert info. I liked that and mentioned that I was going to steal that ideal. From seatbelts to flex plates not all stickers are easy to see. Should help to make sure I’m on top of it.

 

The beauty in roots blowers is their adjustability. So if it's too fast or violent at 6 psi, slow it down even more. Even if you make 1 lb of boost the engine will breathe more air and build more power. Only you have to know what the boost level is.

 

Hmmm...when I read the rules, this isn't allowed. The cage needs to be welded to the frame.

 

Would that be NHRA chassis inspector Rock Carzoli?

 

The NHRA states – All cars with an OEM frame must have roll bar attached to frame. Cars without frame use 6″ square 1/8″ steel plates on top and bottom of floor, securely bolted together with at least four 3/8″ bolts, or top plate welded to rocker sill. Maximum of 6″ from roll bar to driver's helmet. Attached to the frame, I believe, does not imply it has to be welded to the frame. Then again, I've been wrong before.

 

Correct, a bolt in bar or cage will only get you to 11 flat.

 

Yes

 

Because of the way the frame curves in by the front of the door I had to weld in outriggers from the inside rocker to the outside of the stock frame, then weld the door bar on top of the outrigger. It’s legal to 10.00. Makes it more work to keep it legal but better than getting told to redo your plates bolted to the floor.

 

Our cars have frames that are nowhere near wide enough to weld the cage directly to the frame. Thus, the cage can't be welded to the frame. If the cage was welded to the frame, half of the driver would be outside of the cage on our cars. They don't expect you to put a new frame under the car. The rule you are describing was designed for Off Topic cars with the frame rails out near the rocker panels and possibly some of the corvettes.

This is exactly what he said. The plates sandwich the floor. The cage could be welded directly to the outrigger and floor or can be welded to the plate, plate underneath and the under side plate welded to the outrigger from the frame. The plates can be bolted or welded down. Per the rules, if the plate is welded to to floors, the weld must cover every bit of edge and be a proper weld. If it is bolted it takes 4 bolts. One in each corner. Bolted makes it easier to take the body off the car if you ever need to. So that is the plan.

 

If the guy who certifies cages to run 9s says he'll cert it that way, then I guess it'll work, eh?

On my 55 I bent the main hoop in near the bottom to weld it to the frame, and ran an outrigger on the driver side to attach the door bar.

The way I read the rules, plates at the floor are something for unibody cars, not frame cars. I used plates, fully welded, to attach the cage on my Chevy II.

Have fun!

 

Jim, we had a long conversation. He even explained how after a bad crash, the legal team would go through the car with their engineers to verify everything was to standard and see what might need to be changed to make the cars safer (less liability on the NHRA (my words no his)). Bending the bars in like you did would technically work, but is it the best design? If the plates work for a unibody car, they will work for our cars as well since our frame isn't at the edge of the floor. Outriggers are the key. But, I'll talk to the guy. I hope will build the cage, and his input could also modify my plan slightly.

 

^^^I was at Fremont for the Nostalgia Drags when he crashed. Those cars were in the 9's. Pretty impressive seeing those big boats go that quick back then. It was wadded up pretty good.

 

It was Fat Jack’s. I was pitted close by, running the Ron Bizio A/GS truck.

 

Not to start a war , but most small tracks do not even look at a car when it shows up. A Drag and Drive at a NHRA track or some type of event

It will work until you go somewhere else and they say no.