Technical Front Suspension/Steering Questions

Hello all, looking for some help on a couple things on my 30 Model A Sports Coupe, aftermarket frame, split wish bones. I changed the front spring trying to get a softer ride, the spring eyes are kicked foward 1/2 - 1 inch from the perches. I can push back on the axle to get it lined up, however the upper leaves in the pack start to misalign. Also puts the wishbone under tension. I am thinking I need to adjust (lengthen) the wishbones. Is this correct? Should the rear bone mount just slide into the frame bracket or should there be tension?

I was getting some really bad wobble, discovered I had excessive toe-in and the tie rod was adjusted to the shortest it could go.
I shortened the drag link which brought the passenger tire to a toe out, I then lengthened the tie tod to set roughly 1/8 toe in. It cleared up most of the wobble and it tracks straight. The way I adjusted it doesn't seem right though, I think I should shorten the tie rod. Thoughts?

I bought the car on consignment, the previous owner past away. Not sure if it was meant to be trailered, a fairground cruiser or just not road ready "tested". Front shocks only had 1/2 inch travel, rear coilovers had no tension on the springs, only 1/4 inch clearance between the frame and rear end. Fixed this and rode like a tank. Changed out to new coilovers shocks and springs. Feels good on the rear. Front is getting better. King pins were dry. No bolts in the furthest rear body to frame brackets.
Sorry to be so long winded, but most of the fixes for these issues were assisted by just searching this site. Lots of good info and knowledgeable folks here. Hoping to get help on my remains issues and help someone else when I can.

Thanks D.

 

Sounds like a real weapon.

Pics might help.

 

I think pictures would help a lot. It sounds like everything is way out of adjustment and/or put together wrong.

 

Save for getting the spring stretch a little to get the shackles in there should be no great tension of misalignment of any components. In the real world there is inevitably some, but nothing excessive. Expect a tail chase as when you get the spring to axle happy the shock mounts will be misaligned, probably!

Chris

 

Sounds like the front crossmember is cocking the spring forward. Attach the spring to the axle and perches first, then slide it up into the crossmember.

You lost me on your toe in adjustment though. First unhook the drag link and find center of the box. Then set the toe with the tie rod. Last, adjust the drag link to fit so the box remains centered when the tires are straight. A centered box has nothing to do with a centered steering wheel.

 

These might help
Forged Adjustable Spring Perches, Zinc Plated Steel (speedwaymotors.com)

 

Still no pics.........

 

He hasn’t even been back to the HAMB since the post. Not real eager for our advice.

 

Well, to be fair every other forum on the internet is either dead or so slow moving that checking every six months is acceptable. If you are new you’d never think you’d get replies right away.

now I’ll echo the need for photos and add that this sounds like a car that was never finished or put on the road.

 

Yes I do want your help, come on, it has been 3 days and I travel for work. Give me a break.

For the toe question, the tie rod did not have any more adjustment to make it shorter. i.e. I couldn't just reduce the excessive toe in. With out cutting the tierod to physically shorten it to provide more adjustment, my only, albeit, off the wall option was to adjust the drag link "shortened" to give just the passenger side tire excessive toe out. I then in turn, adjusted the tie rod "lengthened" to provide the 1/8th of toe in. It actually seemed to work and removed a lot of the wobble. The process seems so theoretically wrong, that is why I questioned it. The steering arm was already centered before these adjustments. I was shocked that it still was after the adjustments I made.

 

Here are some pics. When I tried to install the new spring, the driver side spring eye was in line with the spring perch, so I just bolted it up. The rear of the eye sat at about center of the spring perch. I adjusted the bone to align it rather than push it into place. You can see the adjusted amount by the lack of corrosion on the threads.

 

I then had to remove the spring again because it sat to low and the spring was barely clearing the frame, I bolted two 5 x 1 3/4 steel spacers to the top of the spring pack make up for the two leaves I removed. When reinstalling, the drivers side was now aligning in the middle of the perch, this time I just pushed it into place. The Pic shows that this caused the upper leaf to push foward over the shackle

 

These pics show the lack of adjustment on the tie rod. I think I either need to cut the tiered shorter or order a shorter, thoughts?

 

Would it be best to disconnect the bone at the rear mounts, bolt the spring to the axel, mount spring to frame and then adjust the bones and reconnect at the rear mount with no "pre-tension on them? The new spring I put in is a Posies Standard eye #1005s. I went with the standard eye because it has been said they are not as stiff as a reverse eye. I drove it today for the first time since the change. The ride is much better. Thinking about putting the two short leaves I removed back in to see how it rides. I know this is not a modern car, when I say it rode rough, I mean it would send the horn button flying out and just jump over a lane or more. I am trying to make it safe and drivable.
The frame is supposedly a Brooksville frame, the spring mount is angled up at the front, I assume it is 5 -7 degrees to provide for caster. Here are some additional Pics. Let me know what other pics would help. Thanks D.
Yes, I need to order some skinnier wheels and tires for the front. I know the wide tires can also cause some issues.

 

Three things, how much thread is there still in the radius rods, yes cut some off the tie rod to achieve toe alignment and the spring is too long, the shackles are too vertical. That's from a quick look. JW

 

X2 on thread engagement. Great shocks there, should help give a nice ride, but they horribly misaligned ( but that might not be that much of a problem?). There should be a key in the perch bolt to keep the bottom mount aligned forwards and the F1 type shock mounts are way too far forwards, and should probably be facing forwards ( buf not essential). Not sure about the butchery of the bones themselves, hopefully done well enough? Looks like the tie rod etc could be tapped deeper, if necessary, and shortened. Should be able to just do one end, do the right hand threaded one, so no need for a left hand tap. If the bones prove to be a bit on the short side tapered bungs from a split bones kit could provide additional length and thread, and is a better solution than a welded on nut (opinions may vary). All in all doesn't look too far away from being a decent driver.
Chris

 

Hello,

That storyline seems like old home week for us as 20 somethings. Our hot rod history goes back to racing a 58 Chevy Impala, with stock components in the A/Stock class. Many movies are posted on the HAMB showing my brother racing and there is even one with me as a 15 year old winning a trophy. My brother was generous and our parents never knew about it, although a trophy was now sitting on our bookcase study area. Ha!

Then we got to the Gas Coupe and Sedan stage with more experience and skills. Finally, after I got married, we had a 65 El Camino for long distance driving and it was a wonderful car/truck. But, as our need for a 2nd car rose, my wife sold her Corvair and we got a project car to work on and make safe for our daily driving. A 327 powered 1940 Ford Sedan Delivery with A/C and full upholstery.

On the outside, it looked finished. But, after driving it home, it was definitely not a finished hot rod. The steering wobbled as freeway speeds increased, the shakes came rounding corners, the wheels hopped when hard braking, etc. My wife drove it and it shook her to question the purpose of such a hot rod. She said it was more fun driving her old Corvair than this hot rod sedan delivery. Yikes!

My skills were good and I got into the search and fix mode. It was too nice of a design to let go and got to work making it look like my old Flathead 40 sedan delivery I had as a teenager. It was my surf wagon that was so reliable for thousands of miles,(slow miles per hour, due to an under powered flathead). But the return on fun was out of this whole hot rod experience. Fun, fun, fun… with little to no maintenance. Other than oil and gas.

Jnaki

So, I delved into the front suspension step by step. First it was similar to adjustments and tightening connections. Then it was replacing parts I deemed old and in needed new components. But, in the end, it was better, but still doing some “wandering” at higher speeds, like going downhill as fast as we could so, we could get up the steep hill grade on the other side of the coastal canyon drive. It was like riding the cyclone racer ride at the old Long Beach park. A little sway here, rumbling and shaking there and a little scary at speed.

Luckily, my friend who had been aligning our 58 Impala, 65 El Camino and our dad’s old Buick sedans had just moved his business from Los Angeles to a new industrial complex closer to our So Cal house along the coastal range. So, now his shop was closer and not in Los Angeles. His expertise was outstanding and all of our cars handled so much better than when we drove them into his old shop.

He drove it around and said he would like to keep it for a week to figure out the plan of attack. At this point, I had already gone through my repertoire of fixes and repairs. So, now, it was his turn with his great skills.

After he had it for a week, a new set of tires, trimmed for roundness, mounted and aligned off of the car and a bevy of new front suspension parts for our 40 Ford Sedan Delivery. New shocks, new rubber, new components as necessary. Sure, I could have done that part, but it was not just working with what was on the car when we purchased it. It had to be changed as difficulties and old worn parts were replaced for safety. new brake pads, machined drums, new springs and of course the whole car alignment on all four wheels.

Note:

It did not matter that there was a cost to get the work done. It was well worth it, as it was done by a professional who knew his stuff. buying the new stuff was there, but the application of his skills made it all go together as a package and boy, did it handle on short drives and long distance road trip we took all over the So Cal coastlines.

The 327 powered 40 Ford Sedan Delivery …delivered (pun intended) so much that it was hard to not get my wife from taking the sedan delivery for errands or visits to her friends. She even had first choice if and when both of us had appointments or other business at hand. Yes, it was a common thing that my friends noted what I was driving and said.. "oh, the Corvair…" knowing who was driving the 327 powered sedan delivery all over the place with a giant smile across her face… all safe and sound...YRMV

 

You need to lengthen the tie rod to increase toe -in . No coffee yet so take with old tired experience.

 

Noticed the bones have been pie cut to give clearance for tie rod etc, how much caster has the axle got?
It can all be fixed and made right, you just need to find all that's at fault and make it all work together happily. JW
edit; the tie rod needs to be shortened not lengthen it.

 

With as much thread as the tierods generally have you can easily remove the tierod and take the ends off. Then trim both ends 1/8" and clean up the cut. Then reassemble the tierod and you'll have gained plenty of adjustment to be able to remove excessive toe in.
All that said, excessive toe in will not cause death wobble. Not enough toe in will certainly cause it, so I'd guess your issue will not be too much toe in.

 

Yes, Tie Rod is too long. Cut off a little, clean up the thread, and try again.

Check the bottom of the frame to see if the front spring is bottoming out.
That would hurt the ride. Some people will notch the frame for clearance.

 

Is it just the camera angles, or is the upper shock mount too far forward ?

If it is as bad as it looks, that will create a bind.

 

Should be able to make those wheels and tires work.

 

The split wishbone is very suspect.
Someone cut it up, and who knows what they did.
See if Brookville has hairpins for their chassis.

1/2" travel on the front shocks is a problem.
At ride height, the shocks should be around the middle of the travel.
Check the part number on the shocks, to find the length.
Sounds like you need upper mounts.

How much clearance between the frame and rear axle now ?
Frame might need to be notched.

 

Just a thought looks like radis rods ar adjusted a lot different. Opinion only

 

The shocks should be pretty close to parallel with the King Pins.

 

Thanks, I will remove and Trim the tiered to allow for more adjustment. The spring measures out to the correct length based on perch to perch distances. I think it flattened ot to much due to the 2 leaves I removed. I will reinstall them and see where it's at.

 

Camera angle also makes it look like drivers side spring eye is closer to axle at rest than pass side.
Worth a look.

 

There is not a key way on the lower shock mount. I can adjust them straight on and they will stay in place. I left them orientated the way they were when I got it. Can you elaborate on the second comment about the mount being to far foward, can't quite picture what needs to be changed.

I will shorten (cut) the tierod.
The bones look to be burger welded but strong. I was considering taking them somewhere to be ground down a bit and a nice tig bead welded all around, if not only for appearance. The bone I adjusted only has about 5 threads into the joint now. I was a bit concerned about that, but didn't know/ still not sure if I should have adjusted it or just pushed the spring back the inch or so to allign with the perch.

Thanks D

 

Great story thanks for sharing.

I bought my 67 Chevy II in 1997. Currently it is blown apart for a long term rebuild. It's a slow go and I am involving my daughter with it along the way.

I have moved it around the county to various places I was stationed, in many diffrent stages of completion or should I say incomplete.
I drove that car from NC to New York on leave, the alignment went out of whack throughout the trip. I was on the Jesey Turnpike when, for lack of a better description, the front end started fish tailing, inside front tires wore through the belts. Got her fixed and made it to New York, spent the week working on her with my father. It was a bonding experience we didn't have the opportunity to enjoy prior to that. That car has been built 1000 different ways in my minds eye. Now the plan is to keep the outward look"original" with some modern wheels/tires and a lowered stances. Trying to hide modern suspension upgrades and a big LS under the hood. It will be a cruiser, but want to surprise and hang with a vette or Porshe.

I bought the 30 cause I got sick of sitting on the sidelines, and maybe a little mid-life crisis and needed a two seater. Wasn't going to be a vette to scratch that itch for this guy though.

D