Customs guidance on custom motor mounts

Hey all,
Stuffing a 455 in a 56 Studebaker Goldenhawk. This is my first time putting a motor other than original back in a car. So, a couple of questions...
One, is going an inch R of center line okay? I need to cause of clearance issues at, you guessed it, the steering box.

And second, i've been reading about having the motor be tilted 4 degrees up from the frame. What's the best way to measure this?

Thanks!

 

Carb mounting face should be horizontal. That will set the motor down angle.

 

Most Chrysler products in the 60's and 70's had the motor off to the right of center for clearance, so if the factory does it, it's OK for you to do it.

 

Just make sure the engine is parallel to the frame rails, side to side. If you move the front to the right, also move the rear to the right the same amount.

Both the carb flange, and the transmission pan (if it's an automatic) should be parallel to the frame. This puts the 4 degree tilt where it should be.

Make sure you also have the fan/radiator in place, along with exhaust and steering stuff. Get all the parts mounted or figured out, before you make the mounts. It can take a while.

 

The carb doesn’t need to be exactly level. Most guys put the engine a couple degrees tilt rearward in the frame. Four sounds extreme.

 

The angle doesn't need to be 4 degrees, especially on older (1920s-mid 30s) cars, but that is how more modern cars are built. The angle keeps the driveline low in the car.

 

I've used the Tremech app (assuming you have a "smart phone") to insure you have the proper angles in the drive train. https://tremec.com/aftermarket/tremec-toolbox-app/
I moved the engine centerline an inch from center for steering box clearance when I installed a SBC in my 53 coupe.

 

All the above, but have full weight on it.

 

Where it ends up is a matter of where it fits best or at all. You can fudge front to back, and side to side. Make sure all components are part of the fitting process (fan, exhaust, dist. accessories) so that it will fit when complete. Remember that rubber mounts will compress a bit and torque to the right (in forward gears) a little.
How to measure is a fairly easy to find 'angle finder'. It can check side to side level, engine/ trans angle driveshaft angle and pinion angle.
I won't touch driveline angle here. You can do a search here and see the discussions for yourself.
This can be a 5 buck one
https://www.harborfreight.com/dial-gauge-angle-finder-34214.html
up to a digital one for 35 bucks or more.
https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-angle-gauge-95998.html
Since the axle should be at right angle to the centerline of the frame, you also want the centerline of the engine and trans to be parallel to the centerline of the frame. This needs to be measured with a tape. Differentials may be centered or offset.

 

the phone app works well as a level finder. I generally set the frame on stands, check that it's level with a normal carpenter level, then set the engine/transmission so the carb flange and/or transmission pan surface is level. Then measure from the crank snout to either side of the frame, and from the transmission tailshaft to either side of the frame, to check that the offset is the same front and back.

It's not rocket surgery.

 

Doesn’t have to be in the center.
Make it fit
Engine angle should complement the rear end and drive shaft angles.
A cheap magnet angle finder or phone app can work

 

"Spirit Level" free app for smartphones. Set your phone on any surface and get actuate angle measurements. I'm surprised at how often I use it when fabricating.

 

I find it worthwhile rigging up some height adjustable temporary mounts so the weight is on the frame / suspension but the sit of the proposed mounts is clear. You can then dial it in properly. Not swinging from a crane, perched on blocks etc.
Takes some extra time but I'm not in a rush!

Chris

 

Just to make sure I got this right...a couple of degrees tilt down in the rear of the engine?

Thanks for the good info everyone...I'll get on it.

 

If you are worried about the carb being level, that’s when it’s sitting on its tires. Will the car have a three degree rake down in front of it? Then it would need the engine to have an extra three degrees in the chassis. Nobody puts five or six degrees of engine tilt. It would look dumb.

We haven’t even asked if your intake has a tilt on its carb pad. Some do, some don’t.

 

The carb doesn't need to be level. The engine will look right in the car if it's at the normal 3 to 4 degree nose up angle. And things will fit right.

 

I'm reminded of the German team in Peter Ustinov's Gibraltar Grand Prix, who iirc had the driver carry two handkerchiefs, one in each breast pocket, in the interest of balance. But think of it this way: if you're alone in the car, the left-right balance would actually be better with the engine offset a bit to the passenger side. If you weigh, say, 200lbs offset, what, 15" to the left, and your 455 plus transmission weighs about 800lbs (?), offsetting it about 3¾" to the right would actually balance the car out. Of course you're not always alone in the car, so you might modify that offset proportionally to how often there are passengers.

But as many have said above, it really is splitting hairs. Bottom line: don't be afraid of a bit of offset.

It's more important to keep the engine/transmission parallel in plan view to the stock orientation, for the sake of the U-joints. Go to OT CV joints and you can install the engine diagonally across the car if you want.

 

BING NING BING THIS!!! The guys down at the spit and whittle club will always throw out X number of degrees but the ONLY reason for setting an engine in at any angle in an engine swap is to get the carb mount surface level That is usually between 3 and 4 degrees off from the plane of the crank/trans main shaft. .
Before the early 50's carb mount surfaces were always pretty well exactly parallel with the plane of the crankshaft. Then automakers made cars with big fat automatic transmissions and wanted low floor humps and lower profiles in the cars and the back of the transmissions were dropped down a tad to get floor humps lower.

 

Which 455? Buick, Olds, or Poncho? Also, know that those Studes have a small, low tunnel, so unless you cut it, the driveline will want some slope. 4 degrees may be necessary.

 

Correct.
The Stude trans. tunnel is slightly small, but a T-400 "should" fit, as long as the engine has the damper in the OEM position, and a 3° or 4° angle, trans. down.
Just go buy a cheap digital angle finder and set it on the carburetor mounting pad !! Simple...right ?

Also, "stick with the OEM, two piece drive shaft". Making a full length, ONE PIECE drive shaft will require a 3" diameter for decent strength.
That said, the tunnel is..."small". It will be a tight fit.

The engine will fit fine.

Mike

 

I figure out the ride height first.
Set up the drive line angles while building mounts.
Cut whatever floor/firewall needs moved
The carb angle usually ends up close to what it needs. If not, that’s what mills are for.
I’ve used a string to represent the drive shaft while building.

 

1 1/2" offset is common.

 

I don't believe in the whole carb pad argument. When I was putting my car together, I too thought about leveling the carb pad on the intake. Not having the small block I was planning on running, I used an old stock junk motor for mock up. Stock intake and all. I leveled the carb pad and everything else, and tacked my motor mounts in place. The later, when I brought the motor I was gonna use home, with an aluminum single carb, holley contender intake. The angle of the carb pad was WAY off. So it got me to thinking, my plan was to eventually use a 2x4 tunnel ram. So I removed the old holley intake and put the tunnel ram on, and the carb angle was nowhere NEAR what it was!!! I ended up removing the intake all together and layed a level across the block from the China walls. Good thing my mounts were TACKED!

 

So maybe level the carb mounting surface with the manifold that you are going to use.

 

Wonder how cars run on non level roads?

 

It's a Olds 455, 1973 with a TH-400. Fortunately, the whole thing fits very well (except for the steering box issue).

 

A lot of not all later studebakers had the engine offset to the passenger side at least an inch and a half for exactly the reasons you are finding

 

I put the engine/trans where everything fits. No idea if any of the carbs are level or not. Then adjust the pinion angle accordingly to where the trans ends up.

 

Slower or faster depending on what side of the bubble your on.

 

Yep. If driveline angles are happy in the 3* or less range, the carb angle should just about take care of itself.