You've missed the point , it's about being able to make an informed decision while trying to avoid advertising hype ...
Good article. I think the main point is that there isn’t an absolutely definitive answer to ZDDP question. Modern SM oil still has some and all oils are supposedly backwards compatible. We do know the benefits of ZDDP. I stand by my machine shop and cam grinder’s recommendation of 1200 ppm of ZDDP for flat tappets. I also don’t buy the use of - fill in the blank - oil will ruin an engine in short order. I like your statement “oil is good” Dan
Student: “if detergents suspend wear metals, then the oil with less detergent should have less wear metals in it? referring to the lake speed video
Sounds like you've got at least some students who are capable of thinking through some of these kind of issues on their own. That's encouraging!
Personally I believe the enemy of flat tappet cams today are valve springs. If you have an engine that will never see 5000 rpm and spend its life at 2-3000 why would you ever need 130# springs good for 7000rpm. A 270 Chevrolet 283 had 70# springs. I’ve run my GMC 6 Bonneville record setting engines with a max of 110# and normally in the low 90’s. The key is lightening the valve train. Conical springs, smaller retainers, etc all allow this today.
Timely post. I put “z28” valve spring in my 283 build just cause that’s what we’ve always used. Looked up the recommended springs for the baby cam I’m using. 80# was listed. Basically a stock 350 spring. The z28s are in the 110-120 range. Swapping em out now. Will it make a difference? One less thing to blame a failure on I guess
I wish I could say that the recent conversations about oil have been educational. But they haven’t for me. The usual points of view seem to boil down to opinions rather than facts. No doubt the requirements for engines and products developed by oil companies have evolved and hopefully still work optimally for earlier vehicles. The points brought up include; too much ZZDP or not enough, non-detergent or detergent, multi-grade or single weight, And then are those who say it doesn’t matter what oil is used and no way changing to a different oil could cause an engine problem. In the end it reminds me of a line from the comedy group Firesign Theater: “Just remember everything you know is wrong”.
This concerns a very late model engine that are finding their way into many swaps. No it’s not an LS. My newest vehicle started using oil after 10k miles. Under warranty it went thru 2 oil consumption tests. Its factory oil was 5-w20 semisynthetic. It did not consume what was “excessive” so it stayed the same. I did as much investigating as a laymen could and from an anonymous factory tech found the engine was manufactured to use 5-w30 but under EPA and other government agencies 5-w20 was used to meet fuel milage concerns. I changed at about 20k miles to the 5-w30 and now have 42k on the engine and the oil consumption is negligible. Oil weights do matter as the 6.2 L engines from GM are currently finding out. I like the discussions here as I learn from others experiences.
It may be common knowledge but for those of us that own and drive diesel trucks we see first hand the filthy black oil at oil change. Diesel engines produce a lot of soot that accumulates in the oil. Hence the diesel oil formula which has way more detergents and dispersants than standard motor oil. This allows the soot to be cleaned and then removed at each oil change. There is no real advantage to using diesel motor oil in a gasoline engine. You will be better served by using a good oil designed for your engine.
Even 25 years ago they were putting in thinner oil at the factory and on the cap than engineered for. On my off topic rod every oil cap from that engine said 5w30. Out of habit I just ran 10w30. Finally got an oil pressure gauge in the car(just had a low oil pressure light before) and tripped out when I was seeing 52 psi hot at idle. I thought it was way too high. Then a guy on a forum for that engine dug up the original engineering oil pressure "dyno" chart(my specific engine was from 2004). Turns out 52 psi hot was dead nuts perfect. And on the chart it boldly specified 10w30
I had one car, a Merc Topaz that used a bit of oil, I was always loyal to Valvoline for my Chevies. So I broke out the vehicle manual, and the oil recommended had some spec I was not familiar with. Switched to Motorcraft oil with the spec, it quit using oil..... I started reading maintenance specifications after that.
"Think I'll sit on the computer all day and argue about which oil is best instead of actually turning a wrench or driving my car"
Exactly............... So, the wear metals will still exist even if they don't become suspended in the oil. Ask your student where and how the metal goes..........or does it just build up into some mass or stay between the bearing and the journal? Does it fall to the bottom of the pan or fall from the lifter/cam to the crank below ?When you change oil, if the metal is not suspended, does it just stay in the oil pan or lifter valley ? Does it just build up and stay where its at till there is no room for oil to flow? It doesn't just disappear. Here is a good explanation. Quote: "Oils suspend metal particles due to a few key factors: dispersants, surface tension, and the size of the particles. Dispersants in the oil act like tiny magnets, preventing the metal particles from clumping together and settling at the bottom of the oil. The surface tension of the oil also plays a role, as it helps to keep the particles suspended within the oil. Additionally, the smaller the metal particles, the easier they are to suspend in the oil. Here's a more detailed explanation: "Dispersants: Dispersants are additives in engine oil that help keep contaminants, including metal particles, suspended in the oil. They work by surrounding the particles and preventing them from sticking together or settling at the bottom of the oil pan. Surface Tension: The surface tension of the oil helps to keep the metal particles suspended within the liquid. This is because the surface tension creates a force that pulls the oil molecules together, which helps to keep the particles from settling out. Particle Size: Smaller metal particles are more easily suspended in the oil than larger ones. This is because the smaller particles have a higher surface area to volume ratio, which makes them more susceptible to the effects of surface tension and dispersants. Viscosity: The viscosity of the oil also affects its ability to suspend metal particles. Thicker oils tend to suspend particles better than thinner oils, but overly thick oil can also lead to other problems like increased friction and wear." This is not "Rocket Science"...........unless you have an Oldsmobile.
Are we still talking about oil? I was busy getting a contract with a scrapper set up, to haul away my parts when I die.
I know, and I'm sorry... kinda. But it occurs to me that, the majority of people over think way too much in life. Remember that cartoon that was on here of the guy at the car show telling everybody what was wrong with their car, then he rode away on a bicycle? Opinions.... I have a great friend named Dick Parisey, retired Harley Davidson engineer, he was over the screaming eagle program, if you go on YouTube and watch Byron Hines induction into the NHRA hall of fame, at the beginning of his speech, he thanks God and Dick for his success. In the 60's, Dick was known as Dr. Speed, he wrench'd and crew chief'd nitro cars, one year at Bowling Green, we got into the whole cam & lifter debacle of today, zinc additives was part of the discussion, as Bob Martin, that was sitting there, retired lubrication engineer for HD. It was kinda entertaining to listen to these 80 something year old hot rodders argue over the same old crap. Finally Dick asked Bob, why are flat tappet failures such an issue now? He said back in my youth, we threw every cam in a block, with 30w oil poured over it, no break in lube, no additives, and never had an issue, hell we didn't have a break in period any longer than setting the timing! Bob told him it was just dumb luck, to which Dick replied "no they just sell junk these days, and try everything they can to band aid it".... I have rotella T4 in my wagon right now, and before I drive it to Bowling Green next month I'll change it to O'Reilly's brand with a bottle of rislone. Metallurgy today is shit, people mass produce everything, and quality is way down the list, below profit and production. Spend your money wisely, buy Johnson lifters and let it go. When you install your lifters, assure that they drop in as they should, complete your valve train assembly before you put the intake on, rotate your engine, are the lifters spinning? Do you have exotic valve spring pressures on an engine that will never see over 3000 rpm? Why did you do that? It's not rocket surgery, you're not in the lane next to John Force lol... now you bunch of closet street rodders get up from the computer, and go get your hands dirty
For those of you who want unbiased opinions on how Lucas Hot Rod oil performs, go to Amazon and do a search for it. There will be multiple examples of it for sale in different containers and quantities as well as viscosities. There will be "THOUSANDS" of responses rating the oil. Check some of them out. The one thing you will notice is that virtually all the ratings were 5 stars. Thousands of users and they almost have a perfect rating from everyone who rated it. (4.8-4.9 out of 5 stars) Read some of those responses. Customer Review 5.0 out of 5 stars Flat tappet lifters are safe again Reviewed in the United States on May 3, 2025 Number of Items: 1Verified Purchase I have used this in a 1956 Oldsmobile with a 324 and about 100k miles. I have also used it in a 1961 Chrysler Newport with a 361 with about 120k miles. All original drivetrain configuration on both vehicles. This oil worked great in ensuring had sufficient zinc content for the flat tappet lifters. Have been using this for years to take the guess work out of trying to find the right additive mix or flat tappet sensitive oils. This product isn't really needed if you have roller lifters. There is research that shows once you have the engine fully worn in after 20k miles, zinc additive may not be necessary. I decided to err on the side of caution and use this oil anyway because of the higher zinc content and have never had an issue. Some use diesel Rotella oil and that seems to work as well. I'm interested in supporting any organization that tries to keep the classic vehicle hobby alive so I felt this was the better option. Adding a separate Zinc additive never has the same positive impact as a full formulation like with this oil. I've found it provides excellent cooling properties as well. Have bought a few bottles and will buy again." Think about it..........thousands of people took the time to review the oil with a "positive" comment. How often does that happen?
So your saying the lake soeed video is incorrect in assuming the low detergent oil had fewer wear metals cause it’s creating less wear metals? and the claim that excessive detergents being bad is false due to the positive Lucas oil (contains more detergents than rotella) reviees are incorrect?
Yes, but there are thousands of other reviews that say they like it............Here are a few that probably use a little higher spring pressures. "I use this exclusively in my ‘56 Chevy and my ‘70 Chevelle. A great oil for older cars and trucks ." "Works great in my 475 cu in big block Chevy" "It's all I use in my '69 Roadrunner." "All of the other oils I have tried in my vintage muscle car engine make it “chatter” Everything is smooth and quiet with this Lucas oil." "My 1971 Corvette 454 requires zinc in the oil and this stuff works great. Good price for the 5 quart jug also." "I drive an old Dodge Ramcharger, 318 V8, with the typical lifter tick. Using Lucas 20w50 did away with that annoying sound and I attribute that to the fact that this heavy duty oil has the zinc added to it. Thanks Lucas" "Great product for older engines. Mine went into a 1977 SBC 400." "Oil worked great for both break in of the cam and engine break in for my '78 Trans Am. The high zinc levels made it to where I didn't have to buy an additive. This was much easier and you know Lucas is top shelf." "Great oil for our 38 Chevy, 355 sb" Only a few thousand more 5 star reviews to go................ At this point, if there are still people who don't want to consider that "just maybe" there might be a decent oil being made for pre-catalytic converter or cars that aren't running cats anymore, then there is nothing that will convince them . Hopefully some people will at least think about other options and some may even give some of the newer oils a try.
Engine break in was motor oil, sometimes some STP poured on the cam, then hammer down the road. All I learned from this thread is you should use oil. Oil is good. New parts are very suspect And oil science is voodoo
and the claim that excessive detergents being bad is false due to the positive Lucas oil (contains more detergents than rotella) reviees are incorrect?[/QUOTE] No Anthony, thats not what I'm saying. Here is what I already said ............(post 68) You will just have to decide for yourself if its worth actually trying some of this oil and decide for yourself if it works for you. As I have already said, there are thousands of Reviews by people who have actually tried the product and were very happy with it. We can bat this back and forth and never come to a definitive conclusion, so I suggest you give it a try and get some first hand experience with it before deciding its not worthwhile.
Yes. Scientist A says rotella (heavy detergents) are bad for gasoline engines Scientists B&C increased detergents and other additives beyond Rotella and label it as as vintage gasoline engine oil so its voodoo, assumption or someone’s incorrect I use oil. I’ve had nothing but positive experience with oil
Now that Lloyd has commented on this thread, I’ll keep reading it. Just for the record, I agree with everything he said!!! I wonder what kind of oil I should put in the oil cups on my generator?……..
The Jalopy Journal
