The reason I'm asking for opinions on this is that I just bought a Gen 4 LS truck engine that was in a flood. Don't know how honest the guy was because they apparently bought and sold a lot of trucks and parts. It was more like a long block than a complete engine. Now I usually shy away from Gen 4 versions because of the aluminum blocks, but I wanted the rectangular port heads that come on them...and I figured even if the shortblock was bad, the heads were worth the $300. Then I saw some more similar heads that were being sold by a rebuilder, and they stated that new guides were installed if needed. I would expect new guides in all of them for the money they were asking. That got me to thinking....(uhh oh) about the fact that todays oils are far superior to yesteryears oils. Also, the rocker arms in an LS have bearings in them though not full on roller rockers. Spring pressure is a little greater. And you have to wonder about fuel additives and how they affect the valves and guides. Last is higher operating temps. So what have you guys experienced as far as rebuilding not only these LS engines but traditional engines as well?
Without any hard data, I'd guess that oil and seals are part of it, but better modern practices for emissions and MPG including design geometry and tighter tolerance in production. It was more common to need a 'valve job' before 100K way back. OEs have to certify emissions to a mileage now and they sure don't want to foot the bill to get that done across the fleet. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-85/subpart-V/section-85.2103
Metallurgy and lubrication are both way better now for modern engines regarding OE parts. My take on the LS is it's easier to make good power and keep your engine together with the LS because of improvements in metallurgy and design. But there's plenty of junk parts out these for the LS just like there is for the SBC, so it's all in the parts you buy and how you build. Buy cheap parts and slap your performance engine together and it's not going to last, but that's always been the truth. But plenty of sources have shown that a well built SBC will make the same power as a similar LS, and be just as reliable. As an aside, I cannot wait for the social media trend of building a cheap LS to make huge power under boost that ends up puking its guts out after a few passes, to die. I'd rather make 500hp for 20 years, than 1000hp for 20 passes.
Agreed, but that's the way it goes. How many old 3 speeds died when a SBC was adapted into an old Ford?
True enough. I fully believe in making what you have work, that's the essence of hot rodding as I understand it. There's a distinction between that and slapping something together for internet clout, though.
I think that comparably prepped LS will last just as long as a smallblock, but I don't agree that a SBC can make as much power as an LS. Thats not to knock the SBC, because I have been a fan of them virtually my whole life. I think mostly its simply a matter of head design. The SBC doesn't have replicated ports which all have the same shape, and it has a 23 degree valve angle vs a 15 or even a 12 degree angle in the LS. The LS doesn't have to drive a distributor or a fuel pump so no parasitic loss there. Almost all LS engines have aluminum heads which allows a little higher comp ratio . They have a lot of good things going for them, but both are fine engines for their time. In my case, the LS engines I plan to assemble will be larger cu in versions (408/427) with no wild cam or high compression. I have been looking at flow comparisons and the stock LS heads generally outflow most SBC heads. With a larger displacement, that flow rate is going to help a lot. A #317 casting commonly used on 6.0 liter engines will flow 256 cfm @ just .500 lift and a 2.00 intake valve. There is room to increase valve size and some porting will increase that flow. Patriot Performance can CNC port it to flow 304 cfm @ .600 lift and adding 2.02 intake/1.57 ex valves. Thats pretty impressive flow for a cathedral port version. Move up to the rectangular port version which is now becoming commonly available from Gen 4 truck engines and a stock head from an L92 will flow 309 cfm @ 500 lift and 326 cfm @ 600 lift. Thats outstanding . Thats the ones I'm wanting to use and I picked up that whole short block for $300. A CNC ported upgrade can raise that to 330 cfm @ just .500 lift and 359 @ .600 lift. (I figure I will be somewhere in the middle of that lift range. Those numbers are with the stock 2.165 intake. I also have a set of LS7 heads I picked up cheap many years ago because you need a larger bore to accommodate the valves, and at that time there weren't many bigger bore blocks available. A stock LS7 head with it's 2.200 intake valves flows 342 cfm @500 lift and 371 @ 600 lift. Super outstanding for a stock head. Oh, they come CNC ported stock.....but there is still room to improve even that. So, my point is that the design of the heads for the newest small Chevy truly puts the original SBC at a disadvantage when it comes to producing power, even streetable power. Again, I'm not knocking the SBC, only saying that like @mr Sinister I'm trying to use what I have or can get reasonably cheap in the true tradition of hot rodding.
Stock for stock, no, the SBC can’t compete. Built for purpose is a different story. Engine Masters did a bunch of stuff on the topic. Tony Angelo built a SBC 327 and a 5.3 LS for his dad’s Camaro they were building on his channel. Both engines put out basically the same power with similar setups. Additionally, I’d put the 350 in my 55 up against any 5.7 LS with similar specs and I’d bet money they’re within spitting distance of each other. But if you’re looking for stock horsepower and durability, you just can’t beat an LS.
I don’t know what a LS engine uses but Since I went to roller tip rockers 30 years ago on my LSR GMC 6 I’ve never changed a guide. Before that 2 seasons was the most I got with a .530” lift with the standard rockers.
It's more common to see newer vehicles with 300k than it was for SBC/SBF powered vehicles. That doesnt mean they arent out there, but it's far less common. When I was a kid, my dad was skeptical about any used vehicle with 100k+ miles, wondering about how hard of a life it had and how well it was maintained. These days, that is the equivalent of 200k miles. Better guides, seats, valves, bearings, springs, oils, fuels, filters, etc. I dropped my 706 heads off to the machinist. He put in new guides, replaced a couple of valve seats, installed my PAC springs, and surfaced & tanked the heads - all for pretty much the same thing it would have cost me to buy a spring compressor and do it myself.
vw golf 1.9 turbo diesels can go 1 000 000 miles with some regular maintainance warm up on the cold mornings before you get the turbo spinning .i know ive owned a few.
I have not switched to Ls yet , It's a superior reliable motor especially with the oil pump upgrade. I have 3 Vortec Vehicles One 240 ish 97 One 260 ish 04 Last one 310 98 , engine on start up spins over Like all 8 plugs are out , hard to start when cold have to cycle the key several times Chain's need to be changed around 180 thou, you can cheat by notching The distributor hold down & get another 40 thou or so Also trick on L460 & 80 really All transmissions is to keep Trans COOL over OEM set up
The Vortec 350/5.7 engines are criminally overlooked. The 350 in my 55 is Vortec based (block, crank, rods, bearings). All the benefits of modern engine production and metallurgy, but can be made to appear as any old SBC. Old school heads and intakes will bolt right to them, though you have to use either Vortec heads and intake, or old school heads and intake, they don't really interchange without hackery. All the old school accessories will bolt right up and they use the superior 1 piece rear main seal. They're all roller blocks. The production rods and crank are fairly strong. Factory double roller timing set. Many Vortec blocks even have a mechanical fuel pump boss, but will need to be drilled for the pushrod. Best of all is they're still plentiful and cheap in junkyards because everybody is looking for an LS. Just look for late 90s/early 2000 GM pickups/suvs/vans. They continued on on marine applications into the early 2010s as well.
Like @Mr. Sinister said , Valve cover for Most Vortec I think are ugly , The 1st pic of are hard to find , & Most time Not what you will receive Most seller copy past & do not know there a different in how they are shaped, I had to order from 5 venders Until correct Ones delivered, Not as good looking of Old Cal customs but better looking then 2nd pic , & good cast you can Just use the outer bolt Like Old Ford T birds , making With thought to block off 2 center Holes & make fines . Black ones Oem stamped . I will eventually install ,move to a Ls 6.0 into one 32 , Part accessories are Expensive to keep engine in Typical location keeping a Stock looking Fire wall, & trick's to keep Not as Ugly Will require Me making some custom parts to my Liking , Keep Hood & sides, & I was Probably first D-A$$ one to put a Jap straight 6 in a Pre War car especially a 32 over 10 yrs ago , The Jap 6 will go back in wants I get better Tunning Skills for Turbo EFI tunning , The engine Looks Bla , with a turbo ,Its a Very desirable engine like the Cummins 12 valve, close to what 3 6-71 complete new kits would cost instock form . It's Hot -Rodding !! But try to keep out looking Mid 60s .
You can buy adapters to run old school valve covers on Vortec heads. They'll add a little height to the covers obviously, but if you have the clearance, they're a pretty slick solution.
Yes , I have been there before , Kept Leaking , I tried many ways Gaskcket's Type , Direct ceiling the adapter to the head with GM gasket maker same Toyota gasket maker, Spent may Frustrating hours, The solution was the adapters are bigger than the head so oil was laying on top of the adapter and seeping between the valve cover and the adapter I took a mill a Ball channel all the way around the valve cover , sides and across bottom and drilled holes so the oil would stay in the channel Drain run down into the head that solved the problem , Just giving some input if anybody goes that route . "Adapters" The adapters at the time I believe were $150 to 200 , B& Bs I think ,, this was 10 years ago ,,, I just play with so many different engine combos
Thanks for the compliment. I’m an electrician by trade but the son of a precision wind tunnel model maker machinist who passed away when I was 19. I did a job 30 years ago converting a machine shop to 3 phase and the deal was all my labor for free and parts wholesale for his making the stands and 7 rights and 7 lefts all of my design drawn on graph paper. I only bought the Torrington bearings for the shaft, roller tips with pins and clips from Ed Iskandarian, and Chrysler adjusters at a swap meet. I missed the ratio by a tad but for the cam and flow numbers on the head it turns out correct.
To me, what you did hits at the heart of our hobby. Coming up with something that will make something work the way you want and then doing what ever it takes to get it done. And ............after all that it not only works, but works well for you. Kudos on a job well done.
@19Eddy30 and @Mr. Sinister I did a bit of a dive into Vortec covers recently. First, I have a crate motor ZZ3 so it has the later roller, one piece seal and vortec heads but takes old style intake. Don't know how available these heads are now (discontinued), but that is possible. https://www.hotrod.com/features/tech-tip-june-1993-982-1486-110-1 https://www.gmpartsgiant.com/parts/gm-head-asm-10185086.html As for the valve covers, Moon has finned covers, but they are over 5 bills. https://www.mooneyesusa.com/product-p/mp659.htm The offshore online ones are 100-200 and as you said, seem to be hit or miss. EXAMPLE https://www.ebay.com/itm/113379391097 The adapters are 60-250 to adapt the old SBC covers to Vortec heads. So adapter + old covers are not cheap. I don't know about leak issues, since I haven't tried them. Sounds like a problem. EXAMPLE https://www.ebay.com/itm/135292736517 There is the vintage Stude possibility. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/vortec-heads-and-studebaker-valve-covers.422661/ So far, I have other fixes that are higher priority, so I've only researched. All of this is not on the thread topic, but figured I'd cover this for feedback and linking the possibilities.
That's good info. I don't believe GM ever released a production Vortec head that would accept the old school intakes, but I did read an article yesterday as we were discussing this that the ZZ3 and RamJet crate engines had some critical differences from the production Vortec engines, yet are Vortec based and technically included in that Gen1+ designation GM put on them. Pretty interesting!
Just Mentioning @RodStRace & @Mr. Sinister I am sure you know , maybe other do not, A good set of OEM gm heads that are Center 4 bolt cover are 86-87 Four center bolts on intake are vertical 86-94 ish I beleave Irock & Vett , boat cast iron. Hard to find ,& will out flow 2.02 camel & Lt1 70 heads , Then the Vortec engine only has 8 bolts all Vertical , Those head out flow Camel & 70 Lt1s I have see heads with Multiple patterns for the intake , I can not remember if all 3 patterns , but I think Logic wo The standard intake bolt lets say 67 - 85 & 86- 94 bolts ? & I don not know off top of head if Bill Mitchell still ,was making a sbc Gen 1 maybe other now ? Gen 1 Style that you can Bolt Ls heads to Then of course You have the SB2 Block & Heads ,,,,, SB2 heads to Gen 1 block
@19Eddy30 You're talking about the L98 heads I believe. A decent upgrade over a lesser head and they have the benefit of weight savings. Vortecs are a better flowing option. I've always seen it said that the Vortecs are the best flowing SBC style heads from the factory ever produced. https://garage.grumpysperformance.c...ck-aluminum-corvette-l98-heads-any-good.5521/
One of those ZZ where Government law-enforcement police packages One of the agencies I seen some unique items not offered to the public
@RodStRace ......Instead of going to all the expense and trouble of adapting, have you considered just selling the heads you have and putting that money and the adapter money toward buying some alum Trick Flow Double Hump heads. Leave the alum showing or paint them. The price probably is less than all the adapters and special valve covers if you sell the heads you have. Also, check the "garage sale" prices. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Chev...cvKzqlcjQr2BuiZm1ik5p2v8drhsYiwxoCG6YQAvD_BwE
1200 plus gaskets and fluids is a LOT more than a pair of valve covers!!! I haven't been able to sell hardly anything, so that isn't a viable option. I have other more pressing concerns, so the valve covers will either be fall from the sky good used pricing, or it will stay far down the list. I think I'll concentrate on trying to move on more clutter, but it hasn't been good so far.
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