Lincoln V12 engine needs a car build around it

A Lincoln engine in a birdcage frame with German transaxle and influence?
If it gives you as much trouble as I expect, use James Dean's Porsche's name!

 

Zephstyr

 

Sled Zephyrlin...?

 

Check out “Ned Ludd” posting named “specials”. Last page shows Aussie car named Zephyr

 

Post 1372: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/specials.720448/page-46#post-15660605

 

Great find! Lets copy that over here because it seems very relevant! 11 3/4 cwt the internet is telling me is 1270lb....so my weight guess range of 1200-1500 is spot on what is possible



But it means Zephyr is out....although I'm guessing that is a typo

 

It is unclear if this is powered by an American Lincoln-Zephyr flathead engine or a British Ford Zephyr 2.3-litre or 2.6-litre OHV six. Either would be credible in an Australian special.

 

Oh.......new in 51, that would explain the suspension I see...and I guess the whole car really The hp and rpm seemed spot on a blown flathead though that could survive race day....50% bump to stock. Its like a 160% bump for the 6cyl engine which is possible....

 

So maybe

Zyphstaer 12 is a winner

 

Zyphstormer 12!

 

Zephyillis.... er...maybe not.

 

Don't know if it's the newsprint and copy of a copy or my old eyes, but the grille looks like something easy to find premade. This one is 20" which would match wheel diameter.



EDIT: a car picture from @"Wally" in the 2025 Speedweek coverage thread.
It may hold a bit of a shape you could incorporate.

 

Funny. The grill is something I'll need to look at a but, I've never built one that I'm very proud of.

Design wise I think I'm mostly happy ...it still needs some work but I kind of like it over-all. I think what I need to do next is tune it into a more proper CAD model. This is basically 1 model and it needs to be become a bunch of separate models that are assembled so I can turn parts on/off. That will let me start roughing out a frame and suspension and adjust the body where needed.

The stuff I've done in the past it was more the body just covered what was built so this is a little harder...stuff like a blower sticking out the hood causes all kinds of issues with how to triangulate. I've not found a good free FEA tool yet to do the analysis either and I hate guessing....i could build physical models if I have to I guess....or just make everything heavier than it probably needs to be.

 

I opened up the engine simulator imported and corrected the old files I had to work with the newer software version. I looked at my old thread....but I was thinking about boats back then. I got looking at a schnieder 262h-10 hydraulic (216@0.050") with bigger valves and good intake and 170-180hp, kind of what you'd expect. but it was the boost I really was trying to look at and....if I want to get near 300hp it ain't gonna happen with a roots blower. A screw type blower will get me there but after playing for several hours.....I really like a Vortec V1-S. I've always thought the centrifugal stuff was the worst of turbo and supercharging but on an engine that already makes mountains of low end this this really flattens out the torque curve pretty nice.....I kind of like it, at least on the simulator. I played with some turbo options that are pretty nice too but nothing I liked better than this yet.
This is stock (which looks about right) v the built engine

 

I wasted another evening on the engine simulator. I've decide it just doesn't understand how anything can flow this bad . I have a book, "flathead ford V8" and its got a bunch of builds in it with dyno numbers and its got typical flow numbers. The lincoln has the same valves as the V8 and the same people designed it so I figure its pretty safe to use the data. If I use the stock ford flow data, I need to time the cams at 130/115 to get the hp peak at about the right rpm, actual cam timing and the peaks is 3000ish not 3800ish, but I get 120hp which is probably spot on. When I plug in the V8 engine data from the book, I need to roll the cam and still can't quite get the hp. But when I take the ported v8 flow and give it V12 cylinder displacement (so 50% more flow/cylinder than a V8 has) though it seems perfectly happy, 273hp happy which seems very believable when V8s are making 200-220 with the same flow numbers in the book and the V12 was 125hp when the V8 was 100 with the same flow
(I think) and same 2 barrel carb.


then added a screw type blower with an intercooler and BAM! 400hp


The main concern I have is the V12 is 8 port intake and exhaust. The way the ports are mated in/ex there is not less than 240 degrees between events......the 262h cam is 216 degree @ 0.050" but they says 262 gross duration so there will likely be some cylinder to cylinder interference ...but not horrible and longer duration probably doesn't really help much nor does header and intake tuned lengths as there will be interference between the cylinders.

 

forgot....at 400hp if I stay under 1500lbs it would be quicker than the frankenferrari

 

Since you haven't got replies on the simulator info, I'll be the kid raising his hand.
I understand wanting to optimize the engine. I also get wanting to see what it acts like on a tool you have experience with. This is what drives the guys out there on the salt, personal best and in a very small niche doing it better than anyone else.
However, this is a big, long, heavy engine with major weak points you want to wring out for autocross.
I'd be more concerned with keeping it happy and healthy than plotting out another XX horsepower.
The tires will have more to do with a good time than another 50-100 HP.
I'd talk to guys who have been there and ask what it takes.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/hot-rod-lincoln-hh-flatheads-v-12-lincoln-engines/

 

@RodStRace - I spoke to the guys at H&H flatheads way back when I was 1st thinking about this engine.....
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/v12-lincoln-build-thread.734309/page-2#post-8170968

it's been a while now and I don't want to put words in their mouths so I need to be careful. I'm remembering getting the sense they considered this a fragile engine and the rods were a big part of that, mild flow work, the typical bolt-on stuff, 175hp NA, 225-250 @6psi, safe on show cars. All my words not theirs.

The rods are just plain scary looking.....nothing happens until decent rods are sourced.

Then, I don't know....the valves are at a weird angle just liker the ford V8 so the block needs to be relieved.....that alone is supposed to be good for 8-18% on the fords. 1.6" valve should be 6%. Then clean up....the net on the ford is quoted at 35%. Those flow numbers yield 200-220hp on a V8, that is 300-330hp of air on a V12 and that is exactly what the simulator predicts. The problem is that the V12 has less per cylinder displacement, so to use that air it needs to spin fastest....also what teh simulator predict and BAM! we're back to rods so there are no BAMs

I strongly suspect these ports are not as good as the V8 ports. I can fix that with boost.....but I really don't have a good understanding about what triggers detonation in a flathead. Heat and pressure no doubt but its the relationship I'm unsure of. A rrots blower is a blower (pump), not a compressor so when its used at a compressor ifs not very efficient.50%? so it makes a lot of heat and boost needs to be modest or detonation follows. Actual compressor (centrifugal or screw) yield about 30-50% more boost at the same discharge temp. Add an intercooler and 10-15 psi is cooler than 6psi from the roots blower.

So that is the math bit.....but what I don't really understand it how a flathead reacts to cylinder pressure and that 400hp graph is 10psi peak manifold pressure. And maybe it doesn't much matter how I math it, a 290ci flathead won't make over 300hp on pump gas....I just don't know

I have a BMW head laying on the shop floor that I'm supposed to look at on the flow bench for a buddy.....that means I need to get the flowbench back to running condition and then I could play a bit. I don't have have a scrap block but I could probably 3D print some bits to play around with ideas before putting a grinder to the actual engine or head. It doesn't appear there isn't much metal to remove in the places my eyes say I should grind so I really want to have a plan before I start.

 

I'm glad you took that as intended and you have checked the work of others.
I did see the rod pictures and that is a concern.
Are the mains also less than ideal?
Oiling? It seems like every LSR engine based on old engines I've seen have external plumbing for coolant and oil. The stresses of WOT for a mile or more is outside any other use, but might help detonation resistance.

 

well isn't this interesting....I pinged them.

 

or this. They say 20 rod min for custom so maybe a group buy?

 

Rod (singular) times 12 equals 2400. Good luck, they have their finger in a number of different auto parts.
I really doubt this will work, but there are offset rods out there. I wonder if a suitable one from a different engine could be worked.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/402482598379

 

China says yes, they can supply them. 2 set min order so if anyone want in at cost or I'll ebay them later I guess. Trying to understand exactly the level of detail they need...and then move to exactly what it is I'd even want spec wise

 

I’m your huckleberry. I’ve been following along with the hopes of this coming to fruition. I’m interested in discussing a connecting rod purchase and I have a half dozen engines here. One of which has no main caps. I have access to a giant saw and was planning on slicing the block into pieces to study the port work. Maybe machine the ports out and make inserts.

 

Ha, I was just IM'ing you as you were posting!

You can also email me, mark@gemellocattivo.com

 

U may not know but early hot rods ( dragster ) would “box” the rods by welding steel along sides of rods to make stronger. How often will your engine be stressed to 300-400 up?

 

I have seen that! and that was the first thought I had but the big scares me as much as the beam so I just didn't see the point. Years ago I built a franken H-D engine that was basically a bored and stroked XR750...and cut 1/2" (?) out out of the XR1000 rods by cutting off the small end and welding on a new end because carrillo told me 3 months...which endup up 9 iirc so I ran the welded rods all season.

 

So it looks like there are 2 rods designs.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/lincoln-zephyr-flathead-v12-reference.329363/

CC= 7.400 on the 1 I have.
and the ford guys seems to like 2" chevy

My thought is that for increased the rod journey so a reason ....the silly 4 bearing main design puts a lot of stress o the journals so they should be left big if possible.

@Adriatic Machine ....what size do you need? We could make some of each I guess but I need the later so that is my priority

 

Same here, the later style. I believe the earlier version has a smaller main journal size anyway so I probably won’t build that one.

 

I see the word custom and start thinking ...yeah, it should be custom! Why is the small end so wide? and why is the pin so far down the piston? I don't know.....but this rod seems fine for a 4.5 or 4.625 stroke, I have 3.75 and I'm certainly not running stock replacement pistons so it seems like making an optimized piston/rod set is the way to go but I'd love to hear if someone has a reason I shouldn't just fix this???