Featured Hot Rods From Troubleshooting Wiring to Ignition Hell

Sorry, you've lost me....

 

Just as fast as I can! Straightening out this ignition issue is keeping me away from the 51-year-old goal of having a truck on the family farm. I'm getting so close I can smell it now. Or is that burning wiring I smell? Still got stuff to figure out, but I'm getting there - with all of your help..

 

Why don't you hunt down an old 351w points distributor and be done with it.
There is very little performance differences at idle to 5000 rpm [the only downside is points maintenance which isn't too bad with the dizzy up front]

This will get your project running now.
Later hunt down an old MSD 6 and trigger this with the points dizzy [the points only trigger the MSD so they will last forever]

A points dizzy will cost you less than fixing a fried duraspark ,and get you on the road now.

 

Thank you, sir. I will search for one.

Ben

 

And there's the rub. At 10K or 20K miles if it ran, it ran! Nobody could be bothered with doing maintenance on something that seemingly was still working.

 

Even as a 45 year electrician I look at all this and how I was so wrong connecting the 2 wires of a dreaded Pertronix ll 12 years ago. I pretty sure in the future in I’ll need to change the spark plugs and reset the timing but it may not be happen in my lifetime as I’m now 81.

 

Yeah, that extended time leaning over motor doing points gets increasingly difficult (particularly with a bad back) as you get older...

For a lot of us old geezers, low maintenance is a blessing. I know I factor that in anymore with any mods.

 

I prefer OEM over aftermarket but the Duraspark is a Lottery. I would rather have an OEM points dizzy over any of those Chinesium "ProForm" dizzys.
The only headache I've had with points is finding decent quality condensers [I had 3 faulty condensers in a row, so I rescued my OEM from the trash]

But luckily most OEM condensers are reliable and generally don't need changing [we just swap them out as a habit]

This is quality time with your "loved one" [your car]
I need any excuse to go out into the garage before Mimi traps me into helping do house cleaning

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like points triggered electronic ignition [MSD6, HEI or TFI] these reduce the current across the points and are reliable.
The purpose of these ^^^^ is more energy .

And you can connect them up using a DPDT switch [6 pole] so if the module fails you can simply flick a switch and you're on your way.

Here's how to connect a HEI module to points using a NPN transistor [#2N2222] to keep the phasing of the Module consistent with points [so re-timing isn't needed]

 

I've been trying to digest as much information as I can and so appreciate all of your help. Here's the irony: I decided to stay with the Duraspark II when I first picked up the 351W because I thought - at the time (late '70s) that it was the state of the art in breakerless ignition. I also had a couple of bad episodes with conventional breaker/condenser ignitions. I kinda enjoy setting points but real tired of sorting through bad condensers until I find one that works.
Thanks to Saltflats, I hope to be testing the old unit soon and already have a replacement coming from RockAuto, but if that doesn't sort out the problem I'm going old school and putting in a conventional points distributor.
Hey, on a positive front, I tracked down why my parking lights weren't working, even when the taillights worked just fine. It was a lack of good ground inside the headlight bucket. I added good grounding wires and - hot damn! - the parking lights work! The last two wiring problems to resolve are the hazard light switch blows a fuse when I turn it on, and the rheostat to brighten, dim or turn off the dash lights isn't doing anything. Cory at Rebel Wire has helped me tremendously.
Once the ignition and wiring are working, it's time to start up the engine, break it in, then set up the AOD pressure.

 

One thing that should be noted is the various Duraspark boxes don't all wire the same and/or use the same coil.

 

I'm all for cheap hotrodding [if expectations are realistic]
Now I've never had an OEM condenser fail, I was taught to replace them with the points religously!

But I had a bad run of new "chinesium" condensers that were faulty out of the box [3 in a row] so I rescued the old one from the trash and it has been in my toy since 2019.
If you have a nice blue spark leave it alone.

A condenser is just a capacitor! [the capacitor discharges .... sound familiar?]
If you know what you're doing ,you can buy the correct capacitor from an electronics store [and mount it externally]
You can also "UP" the energy with different capactors

So if you buy a used points dizzy, don't throw out the old condenser. Just replace the points.
I personally would hunt down an old "unloved" MSD 5 [or MSD 6] box and do away with the condenser

I've picked up Ford Dizzys for $50 [the last one was $20 from a 302 that the owner "swapped" with a Proform]
Note: 302 and 351w have different oil pump drives

And an unloved MSD 5 is usually under $100.
This gives you simplicity , reliability, and you can also play with advance curve springs/weights [all for approx $150]


Also clean your rheostat with Isopropyl Alcohol [I've saved a few doing that]

 

I believe @tubman ? produces reliable condensers.

 

Again, thanks for the tips, guys!

 

Taking note for future reference. I depend on threads such as this to help make decisions.
Thank you everyone.

 

You can buy Bosch Condensers made in Japan or Germany for most vehicles [not cheap these days]

Or you can make your own condenser using an "Cornell Dubilier Capacitor # 224PPB102K" these are quite large [1.3" x 1.0" x 0.5"] so they need to be mounted externally. [preferably away from direct heat on the firewall somewhere]
They are cheap [under $6.00] and will outlast the engine

 

Just break loose some cash, no box, no points, no unsightly, unnecessary wires and components- no more wasted time.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...JY7JfnZ-uI2xXpTUepyt61kaAjqoEALw_wcB#overview

 

I got the module tester from Saltflats today and immediately put it to work. Bad news times two: Both the original ECM and the one I just received from RockAuto on Friday are bad. When I got the new ECM, I decided to hook it up on Saturday and try it out. I drizzled some gas into the carburetor to prime it, turned the ignition key and it backfired through the carburetor, which indicates significantly out of time and despite my attention to getting the distributor set correctly at just before TDC, I'm pretty sure I had screwed up and set it in 180 degrees out of phase. But the fact that it was backfiring meant there was spark. "Was" is the key word here. To confirm it was lighting the ignition, I tried again a few times and watched it with a timing light, which was inconsistent to say the least. Finally this morning I asked my wife to hit the starter a few times until I got compression on No. 1 cylinder to check the distributor and confirm I was 180 out, which I most certainly was. However, once I set it correctly, still no spark, nothing showing on the timing light either for No. 1 cylinder or the coil to distributor wire, which lit up just fine on Saturday. Now to make sure I was getting power to the coil, I ran a test light between the positive, and then the negative side of the coil. The test light lit each time.
Then the mail came and the Matco No. 270 tester arrived. I had two 9-volt batteries that have full charge so I read the instructions three times and hooked it up to the ECMs. Nothing on either unit, which is what I suspected. Somehow I toasted the second ECM, even though I thought I was careful not to fry it, too.
So there you have it. Despite trying for months and months to carefully understand wiring this vehicle, I have screwed up. I don't know what I'm doing and not sure where to start, but I probably will ditch these damned Duraspark II units and try to understand how to re-wire for a points ignition. I may have killed the coil, too, but don't even know where to start. I'm too exasperated at the moment to return to the scene of the crime.
And another damned thing: Like I said, I drizzled some gas into the carburetor to prime it but when I pumped the accelerator, the carb wasn't squirting fuel into the primaries. I know gas is getting from the fuel tank TO the carburetor. I took off the hose going into the carburetor and turned over the engine. The mechanical fuel pump sent fuel up and onto the intake manifold with plenty of pressure and volume. The carb is some oddball 600 cfm Holley that doesn't have externally adjustable floats like most 4160s. I picked up this carb a few years ago, thinking it will do, and rebuilt it early this spring. I'm thinking I've done something wrong just as I screwed up on the ignition.
If knowledge is power, I'm bereft of both.

 

Here's a photo of the instructions pertaining to the Duraspark II. I hope it is readable.

 

Thanks, Moriarity, that's the direction I'll be heading. I'll be in the market for a conventional points-based 1970ish 351W distributor and coil, old school stuff that I've grown up - and old - with.

 

If you're looking for a basic, points ignition system tutorial, give this a read thru or two.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hot-rod-technical-library-basic-ignition-systems.983424/

Lots of good information, explained pretty clearly.

 

To do it right on a Ford, provide "I" feed from the starter solenoid to the coil +. This will supply full battery voltage when starting.
Wire in a resistor in the circuit from Ign on the switch to the coil +.
Negative side of the coil goes to the dist. Make sure engine block is grounded.
Dwell is 28-32 degrees, gap is around 0.018".
Make sure the distributor is set (timed) properly. I'd start at 10 degrees BTDC, unless it's got a bigger cam. Add more advance then.
If possible, it's nice to have the wires in the original positions, but this is not required.
Confirm firing order until you know it.

 

well,does the holley at least have the sight plugs?-surely...?

 

Oh, hell, no! I got this Holley thinking a carb is a carb is a carb. Huh uh. This is a weird duck. Looking back on it, I'm now thinking that between the ignition and carb, I've put together a Frankenstein for sure. Carb says D8PE 9510 PA, List 8411 and date code is 0479. And one more thing: I put the fuel tank in the back and it's not vented in any way, so when the engine cranks, the fuel pump creates a suction so much that it's a struggle to unscrew the gas tank cap. I'm thinking I'll be drilling a very small hole in the cap to alleviate that issue.

 

I've got the crank marked at TDC and 10 degrees BTDC, so that will transfer over to a points distributor. It has a resistor wire between Ign and Coil + and I've got a nice, thick, 1 foot long woven wire ground between the engine and frame and smaller ground wires here and there from the body to the frame. I've found that in chasing down wiring issues, it's always the ground.

 

Glad the test tool worked for you. Sorry it just delivered bad news. This electronic stuff can be a pain to troubleshot.
I have invested costless dollars in special test equipment to work on this stuff in my dat job being a flat rate mechanic for most of my life. I had to endure the change from the basic electrics to what we have now.

 

one of the first returns on that number.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/edscarburetorforum/holley-d8pe-9510-ada-t1956.html

Yep, you shot yourself in both feet! Malaise era ignition and carb, both reasons why it's known as that. Hope you didn't lower compression and retard the cam too!

As for the tank, just leave the cap off for now. Once you get it running, get another cap and swap this one on as an anti-theft device!

And YES, it's always ground!